Dr. Fayola Edwards-Ojeba (Host): Welcome to the Healthcare Executive Podcast from the American College of Healthcare Executives, providing you with insightful commentary and developments in the world of healthcare leadership. To learn more, please visit ache.org.

Greetings! I am Dr. Fayola Edwards-Ojeba. I'm the founder and CEO of RechargedMD. I'm a current board-certified internist at UCSF and a current ACHE faculty member. My team at RechargedMD partners with healthcare organizations to combat physician burnout by helping to create sustainable peer coaching programs. I'm honored to introduce our featured speaker for today's podcast. Penny Johnson serves as the President and CEO for Texas Health Huguley Hospital, Fort Worth South. She has been part of the AdventHealth family since 2002 and has held financial leadership roles in Texas, Florida, and Kansas, leading as the Southwest Regional CEO and CFO for AdventHealth. Penny has a dynamic background, having led hospital and corporate-wide finance and accounting initiatives, overseeing multiple facility expansions, advancing joint venture partnerships, and developing employed physician groups. Thank you so much for being here today, Penny, and for being our guest.

Penny Johnson: Thank you for the invitation. I'm excited about today.

Host: Great. So, the title of our episode today is Perfecting Your Communication Style, How to Find and Cultivate Your Unique Leadership Voice. But before we delve into those questions, I just would love to hear from you a little bit about your leadership journey and how it is that you got to your current role.

Penny Johnson: I'm probably one of those people that say hard work trumps a lot. And I was a late bloomer. I just did a women's conference on this on Friday, I really didn't start my career in earnest until I was 33. And so, I think a lot of it was listening when I got to be in the room. So when I heard other leaders talking, and was in the room to have opportunities, I really seized those. I also like to be a go-to person that could get things done. And I think when you have opportunities and you seize them and people can see what skills you have, then it allows you to get to that next step in the ladder. And that's really one reason I transitioned from a CFO to a CEO only four years ago, was people had seen that relationship-building and said, "Hey, we'd really love you to go do this work in Texas."

Host: Wonderful. So, thank you for walking us through that. And I think we can jump into our questions. So, how would you describe your communication style? And how were you able to develop that as a leader?

Penny Johnson: I would say transparent, authentic, and probably sometimes even a little self-deprecating, I guess is the right word there. But we talked a little bit already about I watched how other leaders that I was really inspired by handled themselves. So, a couple women leaders early in my life, I just watched how they questioned people that may be reported to them in a way that still really gave them value and came from it as more of a curious or educate-me-then, "Why are you doing that? That's stupid." I mean, they just really were able ask questions they needed answers to and making the other person feel valued.

I also think that you don't have to be the loudest voice in the room when you're a leader. I remember we had one CEO of AdventHealth, and he wouldn't say a lot in meetings, but when he'd raise up from his chair and started to talk, everybody would stop and listen because you didn't always hear his voice. And so, I think that's important. And I do think being authentic and transparent, and even when it's the hard stuff, if people know that you're doing it because you have their back, or you want more for them, I think that's what people really want. So, it's a lot of watching leaders that I really aspire to be like and emulate.

Host: Yeah. So, I think a couple themes that seem to be coming out is, yeah, it's okay to observe and see what you like from others as well as it's not just about the communication and what you wanna say, but really listening and the power and importance of that. So, thank you for highlighting it and that actually segues really well into our next question. So like, as a leader, how do you encourage others to feel empowered to speak up?

Penny Johnson: I think one of the things you have to do is, it's okay to be wrong. And it's okay to make a mistake. People will tell you, "I have a passion for excellence, not perfection." I've probably already made a couple mistakes today that I don't even know about, and I'm sure probably going to make one later. That's not the goal perfection, but the goal is excellence. And so for people to do that, they have to feel some safety and security, and that it's okay to ask a question, and maybe it's a question everybody else knows the answer to, and that's okay. Or make a comment, and maybe they're wrong, and that's okay too, and they get to learn in that setting. But I think if people feel safe, they're much more willing to take chances.

Host: And just kind of building on that, do you have any tips for leaders about like, how do you create that environment? It sounds like it's important for people to feel they can be transparent and admit when they don't understand things. And so, what are some tips for our listeners about how to start creating that?

Penny Johnson: Well, I mean, we're all humans, so there's times we're all going to be leading a meeting and we get frustrated, right? So, I mean, it happens to me too. But I think the thing is I'm a very curious person, so sometimes I ask a lot of questions and it can lead my people that report to me to feel like I don't trust them. And so, I've had to do a couple of things. One is let people know that this is a no-fault zone. So if there's been something go wrong, we're going to have a discussion about it, but it's not a fault-finding mission. It's just a how-do-we-do-better-next-time?

The other thing I do is sometimes I'll just say, "I'm just curious. This is not a fault-finding mission." But I'm curious to know, what we're doing in that unit, or how we're solving that length-of-stay issue." And then, the other thing is, I learned this, I heard Malcolm Gladwell speak once, and it was the biggest takeaway. He said curious people sometimes don't need to know how the clock is made, they just need to know that the clock works. And so, part of that is understanding I don't have to know how everything works too, but have trust in my leaders that it works.

Host: Thank you for that. And, yeah, it just sounds like it's important not just the content of what you're saying, but also setting the stage before that and kind of the container around it, so people know where you're coming from. So, a question I have is, you know, we have unprecedented rates of burnout, and it can be really challenging for teams to connect when we're not feeling our best selves. So, what can leaders do when communication breaks down or if trust is broken among teams? This can happen. How can you go about repairing that bond as a leader?

Penny Johnson: I think it's being willing to walk into a room and say, "You know what? I just got sideways with one of my VPs last week. And so, I called him and I say, 'I don't want to be sideways with you. Where did we go wrong in this conversation?'" Because we were both frustrated and it got to the point that neither of us were getting our point across. So, I think you've got to build teams where you can have that kind of conversation. And it can be hard because, as people are entering the workforce, when you're younger, you are maybe, I don't want to say more emotional, but you haven't been through that a lot. So, teaching people that it's okay to disagree, and it's okay to have different points of view. And sometimes you might even get your feelings hurt, but give yourself an hour or two and get through it. You know, go back and circle with that person and say, "Okay, now, how do we get back to solving that issue?" So, I think it's recognizing that people have feelings, but at the end of the day, we're here to serve a greater purpose.

Host: Great. And I think also something that you mentioned just to highlight again for the audiences, sometimes we have this perception that conflict has to be a bad thing, but it doesn't need to be. And that may be where kind of you're able to build that trust when you make it through that process together. So, trying to find ways to develop comfort kind of in that space as a leader. So, this episode has been part of a series for women healthcare leaders and wanted to know for you, as a woman leader, have you experienced pressure to communicate a certain way? And how were you able to stay true to your voice?

Penny Johnson: Yeah, I do. I think every female, I think every person sometimes feels pressure to fit into a mold. And I think that's what's so fun for the generation that's coming up now is that's not there as much. I have stayed really true to how I am. That doesn't mean that I haven't tried to soften some of the edges or soften some of the things. I'm kind of a smart alecky person sometimes, and I had someone give me coaching once about a meeting I was in. And he's like, "You don't always have to make a little joke or something." So, I took that and I appreciated that he said that to me, and I used that to modify me. It doesn't mean it changed my personality, it means I became aware of how I presented. And I think that's the thing, you don't have to change your core of who you are. I'm always going to try to be a happy person. I'm not going to be in a black suit every day and short hair or that kind of thing, but you do need to modify the way you come off. It's as much your responsibility. I hate it sometimes when my kids would be like, "Oh, I didn't mean it that way," or, you know, "They shouldn't have felt that way." Well, no, you have a responsibility for how you present yourself and how you make people feel. And so, I think that's probably just one of the things as a female, sometimes, especially when you're in male-dominated rooms, it's not a bad thing. It's an exciting thing, even. But you just always have to think about how am I and am I always presenting the person I want to present, I guess, is how I would explain it.

Host: You know, one thing that you mentioned is the importance of feedback and being open to that. And so, that does kind of segue well into our next question. So, what advice have you received that stands out or kind of was pivotal in your leadership journey? Do you have like one or two things that maybe stand out to you?

Penny Johnson: I think the biggest one was early in my career and it was about curiosity. I had a boss and everybody had always liked me. I was a good worker, you know, I was a go-to person. And he was the new CFO at the time, and I was young, and he just kept asking me question after question after question. And I'd go home and I'd tell my husband, "Jack hates me. Like he thinks everything I do is stupid." No, he wanted me to think and understand exactly why we did things, not have that mindset, "Well, we do it because that's how we've always done it." And I think that's an easy thing to say, but when you really start thinking about curiosity, it opens up so many possibilities of how do you solve problems? Why are you doing the things you do? Why have we just layered three things on to solve a problem? Why don't we undo something and take it apart? And so, I think he was just very pivotal and changing about how I thought about just my career in general, but also about how you go about problem-solving.

Host: And as you were speaking, I know we've been talking a lot about kind of one-to-one communication and with teams. Any advice that you have about kind of communicating across organizations or bigger visions for where you're taking your health system.

Penny Johnson: I think that you can't communicate enough, I really do. And even when you don't think something needs to be communicated, it probably does. And so, overcommunicating, no one's ever going to get frustrated because you told them too much. Most times, teams or organizations are going to be like, "I didn't know that," or "I didn't know that was the direction." Because the more you share the direction of where your system's going, or your hospital, or your region, the more you're going to get your team behind it.

I also think being willing just to talk to your team. You know, when I have my town halls, I still take questions, and people are like, "Why do you do that?" And I say, "Because if I don't know the answer, I'll tell them I don't know the answer, or I'll tell them it was a good question." I don't think our teams expect us to be perfect. I think they expect us to be honest. And I think when you're willing to continue to share with them, you're going to get people behind you that really support the mission of the organization.

Host: You know, as we begin to wrap things up, I know with a lot of these podcasts or webinars, it can be really inspiring, but for the audience listeners, it can still be challenging to know how do you implement some of these things. And so, what are two things our listeners can do today to strengthen their communication and leadership style?

Penny Johnson: First thing I would say is work on active listening. And what I mean is, early in my career, I remember I'd be in a meeting and I was so anxious to say what I had to say sometimes, I wasn't even listening to the conversation. So, I think nine times out of ten, the less you say is better when you're trying to communicate and picking those choice moments and those opportunities to be impactful, not just to feel like you said something in a meeting.

The other thing is probably just being really intentional about your communication plan. So even at the beginning of the week, sometimes I'll think about what constituents have I not talked with, you know, am I on my message? Should it be different? Do I need to have some meetings with this group? Have I rounded on employees? Have I communicated with my board recently? You know, just stopping and having that thinking time about it and not always being in a reactive mindset, I think, is helpful.

Host: Well, thank you again for all of these gems and insights about communication and how we just continue to improve as leaders. So as we wrap things up, I want to say this has been The Healthcare Executive Podcast from ACHE. For more information, please visit ache.org and let's connect via LinkedIn. And thanks again for listening.