Amanda Wilde (Host): Next, two healthcare leaders share their insights into empowering women in healthcare and why that's important to the health of the industry itself. Welcome to the Healthcare Executive Podcast, providing you with insightful commentary and developments in the world of healthcare leadership. To learn more, visit ACHE.org.

 I'm your host, Amanda Wilde, joined by CORE Clinical Partners' Chief Operating Officer, Jessica Long, and Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Rachel Thompson. CORE Clinical Partners is one of ACHE's premier corporate partners who support ACHE's vision and mission to advance healthcare leadership excellence.

Jessica, Rachel, great to have you here for this conversation about empowering women in healthcare. Welcome.

Rachel Thompson, MD: Thank you.

Jessica Long, COO: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Host: Now, you are both experienced leaders at this point, but just how is it you found your way into leadership in healthcare? Jessica, can you talk a little bit about your journey to this field?

Jessica Long, COO: Sure. Absolutely. It's interesting because I think a lot of people think, ooh, they might be interested in the clinical side of healthcare and then decide to pivot at some point in time and move into the business side of healthcare. And I am different in that I got to grow up with a dad who was in healthcare leadership.

And so from day one, I was in hospitals and learning about health care through the eyes of a hospital CEO and business leader. And so when I think about how I got into leadership and healthcare and kind of like if you did a slideshow of major points throughout my life that I think really contributed to me getting to where I am today; when I was in third or fourth grade, my dad had the pleasure of building a hospital from the ground up.

And so I remember as a kid walking through the hospital, figuring out where rooms were going to go, what artwork was going to go on the wall. Everything that was going on as it related to building that hospital; I got to be a part of. I was a waitress for the nurses when they hit their labor and delivery goals.

And so I just loved it. I loved being in hospitals. I loved the impact that a community hospital could have on the folks that lived in the area and I felt very tied to healthcare, I guess, throughout my entire life. And so then in terms of moving into leadership, I think I always kind of had in the back of my head the path of getting my master's in healthcare administration and did that, did a fellowship at Emory Healthcare and then things just kind of went from there.

I've always just been someone that's gone hard after whatever the challenge or project that I was presented with. And I think if you are working really hard and working in earnest, then opportunities present themselves. So that's kind of how I got to where I am today.

Host: And a good attitude for a chief operating officer, you're going to get the job done. And it sounds like it's just in your genes almost, you were in on the ground floor and you really had this inside view into the field. How does that compare to your road to leadership, Dr. Thompson?

Rachel Thompson, MD: So taking it way back. Thanks Jess for bringing us back to like grade school thoughts. I hadn't gone that far back, but when I, when I think about it that far back, I grew up in a household with academics. So I had people who were professors at university. And they were in medicine, nursing and hematology. So I had that exposure to science young. And that sense of needing to contribute to society and be able to help others,

 was a huge part of my upbringing. And there was that expectation, but it was interesting because I definitely found myself studying deeper and deeper into the sciences, loving biology, loving psychology, ended up going into medical school, and I did not have leadership in my mind.

 It's very rare, even maybe today, but it was rare then that you'd encounter any education around leadership, as you went through your training. I actually was primary care trained in internal medicine and found myself, instead of going into primary care, starting at our county hospital and starting in a new field of hospital medicine at the time, at the time it was new.

And so, being able to be in a new space, and trying to build a new program from day one out of training, it really did force the hand to learn the leadership skills, quickly. But it also, was just, the undercurrent of growing up in that academically oriented family really found me trying to do the right thing all the time.

And, and sometimes my stubbornness would get me into trouble and trying to do the right thing would end up in me leading something. And so it was sort of happenstance in many ways, but also a really fun journey to start along.

Host: So stubbornness seems to be one of the qualities we're already running across that are very important in a leader. Jessica mentioned a childhood experience, and I just wonder for both of you, Rachel, on your journey into leadership and healthcare, were there impactful moments along that career route?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Absolutely. I, think actually that Jess's idea of a slide show, you know, those memories that pop up, those core memories that come back, along the way. Those moments that stand out are probably those times where I really had to stand up for what we were needing to do, to take great care of patients, and they were transformational in a way because I would find myself, and I can think back to one, absolutely interesting series of events where we were at the hospital. We had multiple hospitals in the university setting and I was young faculty and my residents started importing an actual, this was when orders were on paper, an order set from a different hospital and they came over to our hospital and they're like, hey, this is like state of the art, we need to be doing it.

And I was like, great, let's do it. Let's use them here. And, you just sort of stumble into these accidents where being young and naive as a young faculty, I didn't realize our hospital had a separate forms committee than the main hospital. And so bumping into that, I had to realize, well, okay, but it's still the right thing to be using our standard of care.

So I know you're rejecting our use of this form here, but how do we get it accepted here. And so learning to work my way through maybe the diplomacy of that was important. And I credit that to the residents that I got to work with because they were saying, we need to be doing this.

And I'm like, yes, we need to be doing this. And then next, I'm in a whole bunch of meetings with a whole bunch of people, trying to push this thing through. So I think of that as my early education as young faculty, into a little bit of like, okay, we do have to do this the right way to be able to do the right thing.

Host: That really dovetails perfectly into my next question, which sort of is related to those standout moments. What kind of challenges have you faced specifically as women in leadership and how did you push through those? Jessica, you want to start?

Jessica Long, COO: It's interesting. This question I thought through it over and over and over again, because I think if any woman in leadership or just in work in general thinks and reflects on their career, there are probably so many challenges that they could share. And so kind of streamlining and trying to clarify down to few that have really impacted me.

When I was in graduate school, I worked with a hospital and had a mentor who was a woman and was wonderful, in a lot of regards. One time we were just talking about growth in our careers and she told me that the choice was either to choose your career or to choose your family and to have a family.

And I remember thinking, well, I'm not going to make that choice. I'm going to have both of those things. And, what's interesting to me is that the person that helped counterbalance that perspective and reassure that that did not have to be a choice that was made, was one, my father, and saying, no, you just have to figure out how to pull your head above water and have perspective and make sure that you're balancing things, throughout life in both professional and in personal ways. And then the other person, was a leader of a healthcare system, who at a point in my career where I was considering taking a break because I was pregnant and we had a lot of life and family things going on, we were moving; and I expressed to him the concern about having any period of time where I wasn't working. And he was like, look, if a company does not, or a hospital system doesn't want to hire you because you took off some time to prioritize your family and having a child, you don't want to work for them anyway.

And I just had never even considered the fact that I should be thinking about the employer and what they prioritize and prioritizing people who are not just there to do a job, but are also there as human beings with lives, is something that hadn't occurred to me. So that was something that really stuck out to me and in the way of having a woman leader tell me it was one or the other.

And then the folks that kind of brought me back on track were actually not women, they were men. When I think about just in terms of my career challenges as a female and then being in leadership, I was the CEO of a community hospital and was in that position at the age of 30. And so I would say some of my challenges have come and, or were compounded by the fact that I was also very young being in that leadership role.

And so not only was I the first woman to be the CEO of that hospital, I was also the youngest. And I was someone that was new to that community, so I was not someone that they knew, and we all know smaller community hospitals, everybody knows everybody. What's funny is that there are things that happened or comments that were made along the way to me, like are the first time I had our MEC or med exec committee meeting, the physicians looked at the org structure and were like, wow, you have a lot of women on your org structure.

And I just remember sitting there thinking, well, okay, you're a lot of men. Can we move on? Who cares? And so I don't know if it was my hardheadedness and that stubbornness that you referred to, or just ignorance. But I just never saw comments, or situations that were frankly adverse as a result of the fact I was a woman as something that was going to get in my way.

I think it's important to reflect on those instances afterwards so that we can change things going forward. But, I think it's important to let those things roll off you and keep moving and keep that fire of I'm going to prove everybody wrong, going.

Host: Well, it sounds like you really have to believe in yourself. Would you agree with that, Rachel?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Absolutely, and I would say I do credit my family for bringing me up to believe in myself. I was very fortunate, I think to have a mom who would push me hard and a dad who would love me always and no matter what. And I think that, those early messages helped me, definitely.

When I think about the challenges that we face in our careers, I think everybody's going to face challenges regardless of their, background. And yet, I feel like this gets into a very deeply personal space to actually have to reflect back on that, because the challenges as I look back on them, I think, maybe similar to Jess, when they happened, you have to kind of put your blinders up and just kind of carry on through them, and then maybe reflect on them, although it is fascinating, at least in our generation, it takes maybe a few decades before you start to reflect on them, and I do feel like that is something that would be nice to change, going forward. But, the challenges that are striking in my mind, are probably some of the ceilings that were put in place for myself or my colleagues, my colleagues that were women facing the same things. I think though I also am a person who likes to look for bright spot. And for almost every challenge that I think through, there's also was some sort of opportunity that came up. And grabbing that opportunity sometimes was harder to do than if I could have been on the normal track, which seemed to have a ceiling.

And one thing early on was being put in a box of a type of person you were going to be and a certain kind of contribution to the system that you were going to have. And you're in that box, you can kind of stay in that box. But the opportunity came from actually one of our leaders, a woman who really wanted to push opportunity for us, was to meet with someone from outside our system who actually ended up being a mentor of mine.

And I think, having that and being willing to pivot and look at that, as opposed to looking at the ceiling, was really nice. And it allowed me that ability to move forward, but maybe not in the direction I originally had thought would be the normal, usual pattern.

So I think those challenges, they come up, and for me, another one was being willing to move. And that was interesting to move an entire family. But when I looked at another of my mentors and saw his career path, he was willing to move his family a few times.

And I thought to myself, well, I would rather get to 80 years old and look back and say I tried it than to say, well, I accepted the current path without changing.

Host: So you're both talking about pushing through challenges and putting blinders on, and then later having that time to reflect. And when you do get to that point, have those experiences informed the way you lead today? Jessica?

Jessica Long, COO: Absolutely. I mean, that's where I feel like, although in the moment, you don't even see a lot of those challenges and frankly to survive them, I think you have to be pretty good at compartmentalizing at times. But I think the responsibility is for that point of reflection and then identifying how can you do things differently and feel that responsibility because a major driver of a reason why I want to be in a leadership role is to make the world for women coming into the workforce, getting into leadership and for people that are coming from underrepresented populations are more able to come in and not feel the challenges that we've all felt.

And, so I think it's absolutely impacted how I've approached, my job and leadership. I think it's incredibly important, you know you think about qualities for someone to be successful in leadership that are necessary to survive and get to that place where you want to be, and then the qualities that are really needed in order to push us forward. It's continuing to challenge the status quo and not accepting things that are not fair. And as we move up into leadership, you have this unbelievable opportunity and responsibility and this power that comes with that leadership to be able to push back and say, you know what? This isn't okay. We're not going to accept this.

And it means you have some really hard decisions to make at various points in your career. But I think it's important if you really know your true north and you feel like you're doing things consistently and fairly and for the right reasons, you'll never end up looking back and regretting that you made a decision that maybe had an impact of a significant financial impact, but I guarantee you wouldn't get to your max, if you didn't make that hard decision at that point in time.

Host: Rachel, anything to add to how your challenges have informed the way you lead?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Maybe it's consciously or subconsciously because of the time it takes to reflect on these things. But, what I'd wanna see in a workplace is that everyone feels like they can reach their full potential. And I want to support that.

Whether that's because of the challenges or that was just who I was, and that's also why I would push through, I don't know. But I would say that, what I've learned, in my career has been the importance of creating opportunities for others, of lifting others up, and some of that's been through maybe negative examples of those, and so I may tend towards trying to be even better at creating those opportunities, even better at lifting people up and letting them shine, at handing over the spotlight. It's all those things so I can enjoy when others are succeeding and maybe that's because of it or maybe that's just part of who I was, but I do think it got an emphasis through my lifetime and my own experiences with the challenges.

That these are things that I want other people to have. I want them to have opportunities. I want them to have the spotlight. I want them to be celebrated. And so I can contribute those things. And now in a leadership position, I can really emphasize the importance of those.

Jessica Long, COO: Just to add to that too, I think a lot about like what does the future leader look like? And how do I want to evolve over the course of my career to get to that place starting where we are? And especially in healthcare, we're a pretty conservative industry.

And, you have so many different factors at play because you've got clinicians, you've got nurses for bedside, and you have the physicians, and there's this order of operations and what we have lacked, I think, in the past, despite the fact that we are in the business of humans is accepting the fact we're all human.

And so I think something that's very important, as leaders today, and especially to continue to create a place where women are able to really excel is showing that you are vulnerable just as anyone else in the organization. Showing people that you mess up too and being human. And I think there is a way to foster a culture in an organization and give people the benefit of the doubt and let them feel that trust and comfort coming as they are, while still performing, in every way that you need to and being massively successful when you look at it from a financial perspective. But I think that's just really, really important and something that's probably been different in the past. In the past, it's like, as the leader, you come in and you show that you're the leader, you tell people what needs to be done and that I think we all know that now is not really the most effective way probably to get to where you want to go long term.

So I think a lot of it's about kind of evolving how you're coming to the table and showing up for your teams and your organization.

Host: And what other qualities, Jessica, do you believe are essential for women to cultivate in order to succeed in healthcare leadership? Showing that vulnerability is one thing you mentioned. You've both talked about, pushing forward ideas or methods that may challenge commonly accepted practices or knowledge. But again, I'm wondering if you wanna add to that list?

Jessica Long, COO: I think women, a lot of times don't have the confidence that they should in their selves and their capabilities. So creating an environment where women feel empowered and as a, a leader, being confident; you think you're being confident and then just amplify it because you're probably still not as confident as you should be based on your experience.

So I think confidence is a huge one, creating a environment that empowers other people, you know, resilience is still, I think, very important as a woman, because you're going to encounter challenges and have an experience that is likely going to be different than male counterparts, but also just being in healthcare; that resilience is so important. It's no wonder that there's as much turnover as there is in our industry. And so I think that's a really important thing to figure out as well.

Host: Rachel, anything to add to that?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Just to continue on that same theme; there's a lot about knowing oneself that we probably need to do. It's sort of the put on your own oxygen, before you help others. And this is maybe taught more broadly, but it at least historically has been taught for women to really look to support others first, and that might be a societal message or a family message or wherever it comes from.

But really, knowing oneself is an important part to start in when you're looking at what qualities are important in a leader. It is the ability to show up authentically. It's the ability to be vulnerable. It's the ability to respect others and to lead in those spaces. So, once we know our own strengths and we can embrace our own weaknesses and opportunities; we can then start to grow, and I think probably, we talk a lot about growth mindset.

It makes a great leader. What is that? To me, what that means is really knowing oneself, and really working toward, how do I expand my repertoire? How do I look outside and find other pieces to add to my toolbox so that as I go forward I can lean on things that maybe weren't naturally readily available to me, but I've developed those parts.

So there's that self introspection, that growth, that we can do that'll either be forced on you because you have to do it, or maybe you invest in yourself and you do it. But I do think that those qualities, that quality of a growth mindset is essential, and this is also true probably for everyone, but maybe it's important, most importantly to anyone who might face more challenges, more ceilings; is to surround yourself with the good team. A good team you can go to and rely on that can be your guiding forces in your life and your leadership path.

Now, I mean, that could be the team you're working with daily or it could be with a colleague or a mentor or someone that you've met that's across the country that you just stay in touch with too. If you think about being open to bringing others in and then also being really open to the self growth that we can do.

Host: And as far as growth in your experience, Rachel, do you find the healthcare industry has evolved in terms of gender diversity and leadership?

Rachel Thompson, MD: It has in some ways. Over the decades in my career, I would say that, I see a lot more women in leadership positions than I ever did. And I've also seen where, you get women into leadership roles and then things shift back.

And so it kind of goes back and forth. And then I wonder, well, is it enough just to have a woman in the place? Or how do we actually, bring some of the core traits of women, the superpowers of women into the workplace to really help transform it? I think, we're not there yet, but just by the sheer sense that we are seeing more women.

It is only still one in five executive positions or less than one in five, that will be held by a woman. So it's not like the population is represented there, but at the same time we're starting to see, that at least we've got that one seat at the table. And so it does start to bring that diversity of thought into the room. And as long as we can be authentic in that space, it can start to then develop and diffuse.

Host: And Jessica, same for you. Have you found there has been some improvement in gender diversity and what still needs improvement there?

Jessica Long, COO: This is an interesting one because, and healthcare is very different than other industries in this, because if you're looking across our industry, I think, what, 70 percent of our workforce is women. Well, what percentage of that workforce is also nurses, which are traditionally jobs held by women. And then when you look at leadership roles, I think that we are beating out the Fortune 500 in terms of how many organizations have women in C suite positions.

 I read an article from Fortune 500 that was saying 25 percent of leadership roles globally are held by women, that compared to 10 percent in the Fortune 500. But again, how many of those positions are nursing leadership roles and, or positions that were coming up from the nursing trajectory? So, I mean, if you look at it from that standpoint, we're kind of hiding behind this.

Oh, look, we're ahead of every other industry in terms of women in leadership roles. I think the reality is that if you were to look across how we are evolving the space, to enable women to take on leadership roles; I think we're behind. Just to be honest, and so I think there's a lot more that we need to be doing.

And I think a lot of the reason why you see more women in leadership roles is also because of the fact that most households need to have more than one person working. And so just by the evolution of the world and the fact that you can't have a single earning household anymore, you have more people that are in the workforce that are women.

And so you're going to have an increase in the number of women who are in leadership roles. But there is still a tremendous amount of work that we need to do in order to create an environment where it's just as easy for a woman to take on a C suite role as it is a man.

Host: Well, Jessica, what can companies and organizations do better when it comes to supporting women in leadership roles or on their way to leadership roles?

Jessica Long, COO: So, a lot of women also have families, but we also need to recognize that there are a ton of women that choose not to have families. So it's not like by saying, talking about families and the responsibility there, we're talking about all women. The other thing is we shouldn't be just talking about responsibilities that women have related to their home life and not be talking about men that have responsibilities at home and to their families. So I think one area where I feel like all organizations should be focused is in putting support structures in place that assume there's responsibility for all parents at home and not just a woman, and create balance of responsibilities and expectations in that area.

And then the second thing is while we do that work, we also still need to recognize that the reality is the majority of the time there is still more onus on a woman as it relates to the lift at home than there is a man. And so in this period of change, what can we do to make sure that while we're evolving the structure, we're also still enabling women to grow?

I think it's, I need to be flexible, look at the work product that you need done and the outcomes that you need accomplished versus looking at the time that you need someone sitting in a chair in an office. Be really reflective and listen to your workforce for the feedback and be really honest about whether the traits and the approaches that your company is creating or putting into effect are ones that we're assuming, versus are they ones that are actually what we need to have? Because I think there are so many assumed norms that are norms from decades ago that really no longer fit what our actual norms are in society as it relates to women and men and life.

Host: Rachel, anything from your perspective as Chief Medical Officer you'd like to add about supporting women who are coming into leadership roles?

Rachel Thompson, MD: When we look at how can we do better to support women on their way to leadership; I feel like that's probably some of the work that we do will have to be in the space around putting the systems in place. From my perspective, and I think this benefits all people, is to really have those policies and procedures be in place that allow us to say, these are the expectations. We give a little bit of objectivity. We think about even the pay difference, and how do we look at equity across these pieces? And so, if we're doing that introspection as a company, or as an institution, or a healthcare system, making sure that we build those pieces to the infrastructure that weren't there, maybe in the first build, but going back through to put those pieces into place.

And one way to do that is increasing our transparency. By being a transparent organization, we can actually hold ourselves way more accountable, for how we're treating each other, and making sure that we are examining the inequities, the biases that we know we have, because all places, all humans have those.

So rather than hiding them or putting them under a rug or pretending they're not there; pull them out, look at them, and build a structure that says, okay, here's our best foot forward now and be willing to continue to tweak it.

Host: Yeah, that quality of examining and self reflection of the business and of yourself are things that we've touched on a lot as part of leadership qualities. What advice would you give to young women entering the healthcare profession who aspire to reach leadership positions? One thing is you've both mentioned mentors that you've had. But maybe wrapped up in this answer, you can give some advice about seeking mentors today. Can I start with you, Rachel?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Mentors have been a huge part of my life and I kind of hinted at that or maybe said it directly, but some of the most important and influential people are people that I connected with a long time ago in my career that I still stay connected with today and they're people I rely on. They are people who have said go for it. Do it when others might say, no. This door is not opening for you. I think that the other thing is that, if I think to a specific person who helped me and this was writing an article as a junior faculty. It was a very challenging and maybe an unreachable goal for some of us who were highly clinical in that time.

And yet a gentleman from out at Michigan that came in and did a rapid fire mentorship day with all of us. He listened very carefully to my idea and helped me craft something that became my first publication. And I think that having a mentor can't be understated in terms of the importance of helping us get somewhere we wouldn't necessarily have gone, helping us gain that belief in ourself or giving it to us when we needed it.

If we needed that extra push, helping us reframe something. So I think that that seeking out the mentors is important to our career and our growth and probably our overall mental health. But I do think that, seeking it can be intimidating. It can be hard. They're not necessarily right in front of you. You may have to reach out. I have a colleague who I maybe through observation learned a lot. But this is someone who had no fear to cold call or cold email anyone with the thought that he would always put himself out there and just be, you know, the worst thing is they don't respond, so I think that being brave in that way and being willing to like say, this is someone I admire.

Let me tell them I admire them. Let me tell them that want to be like you when I grow up and maybe they'll give me the time of day, for a quick 20 minute phone call or something, and, being brave in that way, is scary. But I think if you reflect on it and you say, well, the worst thing is they're not going to respond. And the best thing is I get to talk to them. So, putting yourself out there is important to find those. It's uncomfortable, potentially, for some of us, but it's an important piece, and when I did do that, I have a collection of mentors and now colleagues and friends that I probably wouldn't have had, if I hadn't reached out in that way.

So make that time. Don't let the busyness of life, prevent you, like schedule it on your calendar. This is my time where I'm going to sit down and I'm going to reach out to someone, and find someone and just try it. Be brave.

Host: So, for women entering the healthcare profession, it sounds like you do have to put yourself out there, like you said, and be brave. Finding a mentor is a really good piece of advice. Jessica, do you have other advice for women entering the healthcare profession who want to reach leadership positions?

Jessica Long, COO: Honestly, it can be a bit stressful, honestly, trying to find mentors. And I think, just relieve yourself of that pressure. Here is the reality. You are going to have some people that are mentors for certain phases of your career.

And if you think more objectively about what are the needs that you have at each chapter in your career, is it that you need someone that's going to give you good input on how to grow a company, or is it that you want somebody that's really done a lot of change management with or evolving their workforce. Just think about the needs that you have along the way and seek out folks in your network that have experience in those areas. Then you've got like the more, lifetime mentors. And, I think those are the people that in kind of going into the advice for folks, those mentors are the ones that really good at listening. And they're the ones that when you're maybe not really sure what to do or you're lacking that confidence, you can go to and have honest conversation and they can give you honest feedback. They can push back on you. And then they can also, when you're down on yourself, help to give you that confidence again, that everything's going to be fine and to keep pushing forward.

I think that it's really important just globally speaking for, especially for women is figuring out where your wells are. So like, where is it that you fill back up and define that confidence? Maybe it's through mentorship or through different projects or things like that. But where is it that you go and find confidence when you're lacking? Where is it that when you're on the edge and you feel like I'm going to scream right now, where is it that you go to kind of take things back down? Is it that you go outside and you take a walk and you feel better? Is it that you talk to someone that always makes you laugh and they don't need to know what's going on, but they just help alleviate and diffuse the negative energy or frustration that you have.

You got to figure out where you go to give your brain a break, where you go to get the confidence back when you're lacking it. I think learning how to ask for help is something that women in particular really struggle with. It's just not easy. I feel like we're wired to think that we have to do it all.

And to that end and kind of bringing it back to mentorship; I think it's important to have a mentor that is a woman because they're just going to intrinsically understand things because they're a woman like you, but it is also really important. And I would say some of my most helpful mentors have been men because

 you've got the different perspective and be able to have someone that can look at things really differently. I mean, that's how we evolve, right, is having challenge and having different points of view. And I think that's also a very two way street because I'm telling you any younger careerist, or I don't care what point you are at in your career, but if you have that balance, that mentor is learning from you as a mentee as well.

 So I think that, and then just give yourself a break. We're all human and we are doing the best that we can. I guarantee you that most of us are feeling like we're not doing as good as we could, or we're failing in one way or another day in and day out. And you just can't break. We need women. We need you to be in leadership. So, just know everyone's human, trying the best that we can, you're probably doing way better than you give yourself credit for. So just try to cut yourself a break.

Amanda Wilde (Host): That's a great segue, Jessica, to my next question, which is looking ahead into the future. What do you hope to see in the future of healthcare leadership, specifically for women, and how can we work collectively to get there? I think you've touched on that a bit, but I'm going to give you an opportunity to wind it up as we look toward future endeavors.

Jessica Long, COO: I have thought about what is it that specifically that I hope to see in the future? I mean, I guess just broadly speaking, I hope that we're able to see industry in a landscape that it's just as easy for one person as it is another to move into leadership.

I hope that we see an environment that's more supportive of the world and our society as it stands today and not as it was decades ago. And I think that to collectively get there, having really open and honest conversations about where we are and how we got here is important. There's a need to have an avenue for honest conversation about how people are feeling and what they've experienced in their career, because otherwise, people that haven't experienced don't understand it. And then understand and let that serve a purpose and help fuel then change. I think you don't want to get lost in all of the bad or all of the challenge or all of the wrong that has occurred.

Put it out there so we can learn from it and then move forward on how do we solve our things and make it better in the future. So I hope to just see a world in which it's easier for people, for women to move into leadership roles.

Host: Rachel, do you think that's the trend where we are on?

Rachel Thompson, MD: Is that the trend we are on? I hope so. I think so. I want to believe that's true. I think that time will tell us, if it is, but when I think about the future and the future of healthcare or the future of healthcare leadership; it is a transformation. Jess talked about that too, where the type of leadership, the archetypal leadership which was very top down, very heavy handed, very I'm right all the time, that is eroding.

And I do think that's a very positive thing. I think that as we drive forward and we really try to continue to improve as a society and on behalf of the people we get to serve; I do think that we need to continue to design that smooth way of continued evolution in the leadership space for welcoming people of diverse backgrounds.

We need that diversity of thought in the leadership space for us to be able to truly grow. And so when we think of it, we don't want any one type. We don't want any one set of ideas. We want to move towards having a lot of ways to look at things. We want to examine things more thoroughly and really get to a point where we're willing to try some avenue that may have been a collaborative design.

We want to not be afraid to fail. And we don't want to be so wrapped up in saving face that we don't try something, that might not work, but that might be amazing. So I think that as we evolve and in the leadership space, in the healthcare leadership space, I really hope to see us continue down what starts in some places.

It's not everywhere now, but really be accepting of that and building our teams to have diversity of thought, to have that fail forward mentality, and for our leaders to be okay with not knowing everything, with asking for help, with asking for insights from others. And I think that alone will allow us to grow in ways that healthcare needs to.

Host: Humanity really shows itself through all aspects of the organization. Jessica Long, Rachel Thompson, thank you so much for joining us today. This has truly been enlightening and an encouraging conversation on the importance of empowering women in healthcare leadership. Really appreciate your insights.

Jessica Long, COO: Thank you.

Rachel Thompson, MD: Thanks for having us.

Host: That was Jessica Long, Chief Operating Officer, and Dr. Rachel Thompson, Chief Medical Officer with CORE Clinical Partners. CORE Clinical Partners, one of ACHE's premier corporate partners who support ACHE's vision and mission to advance healthcare leadership excellence. For more resources and information, visit healthcareexecutive.org. Subscribe so you won't miss an episode and stay tuned for our next discussion. This is Healthcare Executive Podcast from the American College of Healthcare Executives.