Caitlin Whyte (Host): Welcome to the Healthcare Executive Podcast, where we provide you with insightful commentary and developments in the world of healthcare leadership. I'm your host today, Caitlin Whyte. In this episode, we are joined by Ginny Clark, a conscious leadership expert. Ginny is the former director of executive recruiting at Google and has been instrumental in finding and hiring senior leaders, developing diversity programs and enhancing leadership mobility within organizations. She will be one of the keynote speakers at our ACHE 2025 Congress on Healthcare Leadership in Houston from March 24th through the 27th. To learn more and to register, visit ACHE.org/congress. Ginny, can you start off our conversation today by sharing your career journey and what led you to become an executive coach?

Ginny Clarke: It's a somewhat, non linear path, shall I say. Someone said I meandered, and I took exception to that. It was actually quite deliberate at different points in my life. I wanted to be a veterinarian, coming out of high school. So I went to the University of California at Davis, which has an animal science program and a vet school.

I got there and I was looking at cows and sheep and whatnot, and I wanted nothing to do with it. So I changed majors from animal science to French and linguistics. That makes perfect sense. I'd studied French all through high school. I loved it. Linguistics seemed like a more rigorous, thoughtful major.

So that's what I graduated in, became a recruiter for the University of California for a couple years, and then moved to Chicago. I'm a native of Southern California. My heart's bleeding for what's going on there. But I moved to Chicago for graduate school at Northwestern, the Kellogg School. And, came out of there, went into banking and commercial real estate. I was with Chase. I was with what's called JLL used to be called LaSalle partners back in the day. And then I went to Prudential Real Estate Investors. So 10 years in financial services and I had a defining moment. My father passed away and he had been really a coach and a guide for me professionally, two amazing parents.

And I questioned everything about my life after his passing and I thought I don't want to keep doing this real estate stuff that I've been doing for 10 years. What would I always, what have I always loved? And I wrote in a book that I later, wrote it in 2011. I said it was as though I left breadcrumbs for myself.

I thought back to everything I actually loved and that was, recruiting and interviewing people. And I was even on the admissions committee at Kellogg when I was there. So it was recruiting. I decided I wanted to be an executive recruiter. Took me a couple of years to land, at one of the world's largest executive search firms, Spencer Stewart.

And I was there for 12 years. I became a partner. I co-founded Leather Global Diversity Practice. And then rather abruptly, I decided to leave and it was nothing happened. Nothing bad other than sort of an awakening that said, I really wanted to help people with their careers and that's when I wrote the book, Career Mapping, Charting Your Course in the New World of Work.

I was also a single mother at that point in time. I had been married, had a child, divorced. And so after a couple of years of being independent consulting, things like that, I decided to go back into a search firm. That firm sold after a couple of years. Someone I'd worked with went to Google. They called and said come join us out here.

They had just spun off their executive recruiting team. So, I know this feels like a long story, I've just got a lot of years behind me, so, going out to Google was fascinating, I was able to be back in my home state, my son was in college at USC, so I was at least closer to him on the same coast, and, it was an amazing almost five years there, because not only I was hired to support the diversity elements of the executive recruiting function.

Within two months, I was voluntold, quote unquote, that's the term she used, by the head of Google's HR group, to create an internal mobility program for senior leaders, which I said, fine, I can do that. My book is essentially a guide to doing that. The book is really about competencies, which I can talk ad nauseum about later if it's of interest.

And, and then I took over a team of non tech recruiters. So I have three separate groups reporting into me simultaneously for most of the time that I was here. And, and it was amazing. It played to all my strengths and my expertise. I decided, as I said, after nearly five years to move back to Chicago and to start working for myself, speaking.

 That's how I got with Leading Authorities, the Speakers Bureau. And after doing a lot of speaking, I decided I want to produce some content too. And over time, it still took another year or two for me to start the executive coaching part of my work. So I do executive coaching. I'm working on a second book.

I did a podcast while I was still at Google called Fifth Dimensional Leadership. I've turned that into my YouTube channel, which is by that same name, and I'm creating a course that will be rolling out in early March, on leadership. So kind of a long story, but that's what brought me here.

And it's everything I love and everything that makes sense. And arguably everything that I think is really important and necessary right now in the world that we're in.

Host: I love hearing how all those different roles and experiences brought you to the version of yourself that you are today in this current era. So right now you are a conscious leadership expert. What does being a conscious leader mean to you and why do you believe it's crucial in the healthcare sector?

Ginny Clarke: Yeah. I mentioned, my father passing away as part of that story, because that was also when I became introduced to the notion of spirituality and consciousness.

Host: Mm

Ginny Clarke: And frankly, it was because I wanted to feel closer to my dad. My mother passed away about four years later. And lucky for me, I was introduced to a healer. He's more than that. I mean, the man has a, he's a, a scholar, a master's in divinity, a master's in psychology, and a shaman. I mean, he's all these things. And we've been working together for 30 years. And so I started a very deliberate meditation practice and read dozens and dozens of books on metaphysics, spirituality.

And it was something that really helped me during the difficult time of the transition of losing my parents, going through a divorce, being a single mom. And I thought, I don't want to segregate my life and be spiritual on the one hand, and then go to work and try to be something else. And then something kind of clicked for me at work in the early days at Spencer Stewart.

I was interviewing a bunch of these senior leaders and initially I was sort of intimidated because I was still in my 30s and some of these mostly men were older, big title, made lots of money. And I started interviewing and I kind of went that's it? I mean, I just, I wasn't always that impressed with some of the conversations that we had.

And then I met somebody who really impressed me and I thought, well, what did he have that was so distinctive? And finally, it became clear it was self-awareness. And then I thought, well, self-awareness is, is the beginning, to me, of consciousness. Because consciousness, the term, is about awareness. And in a spiritual context, it often means things that you can't see, right?

That are, that are happening within your a deeper awareness of self and what's around you. And so that was where I started to integrate and, and recognize that I thought, and not to mention my own experiences with leaders, some of whom were really poor, a couple of whom were good. Most were kind of in the middle, in the mediocre. Okay.

And so I thought what's been missing for these people? It was clear to me that there, there was an undeveloped sense of self and the connectivity and the humanity, that I think we need today. Another long description, but it was a series of things that converged that helped me land on this need for leaders needing to become more aware of themselves, more aware of others, developing empathy, leaning into their authenticity, and making that a cornerstone of how they lead.

Can you assess it going in? I kind of think so. I'm pretty good at it, but I don't know that most organizations have it on the list of selection criteria when they're hiring or when they're promoting people into leadership roles.

Host: That is fascinating. Well, Ginny, you are an author, a leader, podcaster, YouTuber. I'd love to know more about how you went into creating your own leadership brand, and how would you also describe it?

Ginny Clarke: You know, it, it's sort of, it evolved and I actually, I think a lot of it came, you know, sometimes you don't realize what the influences were in your early life, but for me, I definitely remember, my father was a superintendent in a correctional facility. And then went on to oversee a number of them, called the California Youth Authority back in the day.

So he was, think prison warden, okay?

Host: Yeah.

Ginny Clarke: Tough man. But as a child, we lived on the grounds of one of these facilities, and so I would walk over and see him at work. And I can remember how people, they showed respect to him, but what became clear to me is that he earned that respect because he was respectful of them.

So it wasn't a positional you know, orientation that he took, I'm the leader and therefore you should bow down and respect me. That wasn't it at all. He was quite humble. Tough, as I say, but empathetic and kind and reasonable and fair. And those were things that I saw from him. My mother was a physical therapist. As I watched her operate, I used to go to the hospital and watch her too. She didn't have people reporting to her, but the way she conducted herself gave me those two images and archetypes, if you will, gave me a sense of how I thought leaders should lead. And that's how I chose to lead in the teams that I've had and, i tnhe roles that I've been in. And let me emphasize here, we're talking about leadership now in the context of sort of that hierarchical, someone has other people reporting to them.

But I think we need more people to fall into leadership behaviors, especially in what I think is a void right now. So being a leader isn't just about your level rank title. It's about showing up and demonstrating these behaviors in the workplace and elsewhere. So, you also asked me, I think, again, going into all this other stuff, what is my sort of, leadership style?

I think I would describe it as inclusive and deliberate. And so I say inclusive, yeah, DEI is sort of a hot topic, hot potato these days, but I think the term inclusive really doesn't have to be negative or otherwise people avoiding it. I'm looking to tap into, and this is where the consciousness comes in, I'm seeking to identify people and look into them, to see them, to connect and talk to them and listen to them, to understand what their contributions might be on the team.

So I want to be inclusive in that sense. I want people who are bringing different capabilities and skills. This isn't a one way to be kind of a situation. So that's one of the things that I do. And that deliberate thing, that was a theme in my career, too, where I was clear. I made a decision about where I wanted to go and when that stopped working for me.

So similarly in leadership, you've got to be ready to pivot, you know, if something's not working, whether it's a person, a strategy, a tactic, an outcome, you better know when to switch and switch up and make a change. So that's kind of how I lead. I think the other thing that makes me probably unique, and I had, I said this to a group of people recently, they sort of clutched their pearls because I said, listen, I don't seek to be liked.

People were like, what do you mean? And I said, no, I seek to be respected. Remember I told you about my dad.

Host: Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Ginny Clarke: I want to be respected for doing what is best for most or all. You're not always going to like my decision. And as my mother used to say. You don't have to like me, but you will respect me. And I found that most people like me, but that's not my goal.

Right. And I think a lot of people are, we talk about imposter syndrome and some of these other things that are plaguing leaders today, I link it back to having a very people pleasing orientation and the sort of ugly stepsister, which is being conflict averse. So we're not telling each other the truth.

We're walking around, and I think some of it is from social media, where we just covet these likes. Did you like what I posted? Is it? No, I don't need to be liked. I, I need you to hear what I'm saying. I need you to, to weigh in and offer me some insights and feedback. And I think if we could get back to that and start feeling comfortable, and stop craving the need to be liked instead be respected; I think it would go a long way in having leaders have a better sense of their team and frankly enhance the performance of everyone.

Host: It's funny how there's being liked as a leader, and then it kind of translates into the likes, quote unquote, that you get online, right? And the social media likes and whatnot.

Ginny Clarke: I think it does. I mean, I, I just see so many people that they seem to think, I always say, especially the, the related topic is around feedback for me, you know, because I didn't always get really good feedback coming up in my career. And I was deliberate about giving good feedback to my team members.

And now I realize how conflict diverse people were. They didn't, they weren't comfortable saying things and they wanted to be nice. And I'm saying, stop being nice. Being nice is when you say what somebody wants to hear. Being kind is when you're telling them what they need to hear. And that comes as feedback. And to me, that's an obligation of a great leader.

Host: Well, I'd love to follow up on the first part of that question and just kind of lean into what are some other personal and professional inspirations that drive you in your work?

Ginny Clarke: You know, I think so much for me has to do with seeing people empowered. Because in my years, I've got almost 40 years of experience, and I shudder to, you know, I cringe when I say that because it makes me sound so old. But it's gone fast, and I think, you know, having a son in his, in his late 20s, staying connected to, all these different elements that I'm involved in, I think keeps me kind of oriented to what I think is important, and what inspires me is just really trying to empower people to affect change, because we're not in a good place.

And I sometimes probably sound like I'm down on leaders, people in leadership roles, I should say. In fact, it's not necessarily their fault. I think we've allowed ourselves to have systems that are not serving us well. And I suggest that we take sort of the, I call it the five and the 95. There are in most organizations up to say 5 percent of people of the workforce in leadership roles in any given organization.

So the, 95, everybody else who's being led, I think they need to be the ones to say, this is what we need. This is how we expect to be treated. These are the systems that we need to operate better, so that there is inclusion, that there is innovation. So, that's my goal, it's to really, empower people.

And that's kind of a theme, personally, when I think about where I've come and what holds meaning for me. And professionally, that's what kind of runs through everything that we've talked about that I'm doing these days.

Host: Well, in addition to empowering when you're coaching leaders, what are some of their most common workforce challenges and how do you work with them to find solutions? Mm. Mm hmm.

Ginny Clarke: I think the words don't always come out this way for them, but the way I would characterize it would be engagement, a lack of engagement among team members and productivity. And it's, you know, that sounds kind of like we're, we're operating in a factory or something, where we're producing widgets, but, that's really not it.

 It's really making sure that you are plugged in and connected with people because we saw the great resignation on the heels of COVID. Now I think the numbers have shifted for all kinds of economic and other reasons. And so the workers, the workforce doesn't have the leverage that they once had.

Nevertheless, leaders should be held accountable for retaining and developing, more so developing first and retaining. They are linked, by the way. There's a McKinsey study that says that, the number one reason people leave, quit, is because of a lack of career development and advancement. And that, to me, is, is the responsibility shared with the individual and their leader.

To me, that's, that engagement, that's where I think a lot of people probably simply don't understand that that is their role as a leader. I've worked with quite a few folks who moved into leadership roles because of domain expertise. Because they're brilliant at something, whether it's the law or finance or whatever it is, no one ever kind of told them that there are leadership competencies that are, and maybe most people don't know this, I did because I was a recruiter and I was trained in competency based assessment, but they don't understand that just because you're brilliant at something doesn't mean that you should lead that group or that function or that discipline.

It doesn't. But you should be able to demonstrate specific leadership competencies. Things like navigating ambiguity, building inclusive teams, effective communication. I know these things sound really simple. There are, you know, a couple of sentences that would describe what that looks like, right, what the behaviors are that someone should, dare I say master, to be an effective leader.

So, those are the things that I'm seeing these days that a lot of folks are struggling with. They haven't had strong leaders to model. They weren't necessarily assessed, nor have they been evaluated going forward during the performance evaluations, for example. No one's actually saying, how are you doing as a leader?

They just tend to look at, well, here's the outcome of your team, but let's look at what your behaviors have been and how those things are impacting the people in your organization.

Host: Yeah. Well, you are presenting a hot topic session and leading an interactive workshop on developing your leadership brand and telling your story at our 2025 Congress on Healthcare Leadership. So what can attendees expect to hear covered there?

Ginny Clarke: It's the derivation of something that I had in my 2011 book called Career Mapping, where I talk about your personal brand and I've evolved it all these years later to a leadership brand. And there are four elements and they're, they're different from the original personal one. The first one is competency. There's that word again. I define competency as are two ways that I define it. One is, skills plus knowledge plus ability, because people think it's a skill and you can learn a skill. But if you don't have the knowledge of the context in which you're operating, if you don't have the mental, physical and emotional ability to do this thing, when it needs to be done and be able to pivot and make adjustments; then you're not likely going to be as competent as you could be if those things were in place.

The other way I describe a competency is to say they are the deconstructed elements of how you do something. So it's not just that you've done it before. We love over indexing on, oh, they have lots of experience. Well, they could have done it poorly, even though they had experience, right? So, competency is the first one.

The second one is really around reputation, and there are lots of ways that you can build one and tear one down, so we'll be talking about that. Image and how you show up, more than just, you know, it's not the superficialities, it's how are you speaking, how are you engaging, how do you behave yourself, comport yourself, and one of those words.

And the last one is value. And I think a lot of folks don't think about what they're bringing to the table and the value that it has. I mean, you, you have to consider, is what I do adding value to what this organization says it needs? That's part of this whole leadership brand.

 So those are the four key elements. But then I also talk about how do you talk about yourself and build a narrative for people inside of your organization so that if you're on an elevator with, say, a colleague in another group or division, they don't necessarily know you, what would you say about yourself?

How would you describe yourself? And I think people need to get good at doing that. And can also be a very gratifying and reinforcing exercise to hear you speak about what you've done, how you did it, what makes you good at what you do, and how you add value. So those are the things that we'll be talking about at this upcoming event. I'm excited about it.

Host: Well finally, as the workplace and the healthcare field go through rapid change and evolution over the next few years, what are some ways that leaders can adapt while staying true to their brand?

Ginny Clarke: I think adapting to what's happening and evolving in the world requires adopting and building new competencies and even attributes, and, and even allowing some of the, the attributes that you have naturally to show themselves in the workplace. So I'm talking about this self-awareness thing again, empathy, the things that really connect our humanity.

That to me is one of the most important elements because I think it unlocks that consciousness. The awareness of that unlocks more. That's, that's where the gold is. It's when you can tap into what somebody is not just good at, but willing to explore and develop them. And I think we really sub-optimized our workforce.

I think a lot of folks aren't operating at their highest potential simply because no one's taking the time to get to know what that looks like. And when I think about, the healthcare field; there's no other sector where that's more important. The Hippocratic Oath is about helping people, right?

 So that, to me, is what we all need to get back to across sectors, at all levels. It's back to that humanity, back to that awareness of self, awareness of others. You know, everybody's enamored and sort of bowing at the altar of AI right now. But I don't think AI will ever be able to meet and replicate the consciousness of humans. And I think that's what we need to lean into as we rely on the tool that AI is.

Host: Well, thank you, Ginny, for sharing your valuable insights on Conscious Leadership and Career Development. We look forward to your session at ACHE 2025 Congress on Healthcare Leadership. For more information and to register for the Congress, visit ACHE.org/congress. For more insightful discussions, like today's subscribe to the healthcare executive podcast and visit ACHE.org for resources to support your leadership journey. Until next time, I'm Caitlin Whyte. Thank you for listening.