Intro: Welcome to the Healthcare Executive podcast from the American college of Healthcare Executives, providing you with more insightful commentary and developments in the world of healthcare leadership. To learn more, please visit ache.org.

William “Marty” Martin, PsyD (Host): I'm Dr. Marty Martin, and I'm the Director and Associate Professor at DePaul University in Health Sector Management. And it's my pleasure to be here with two of our guests. First is Dr. Tiara Walz, Deputy Program Director and Associate Professor at Army-Baylor University in Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

And with her is Dr. Lindsey Umlauf, who is Deputy Chief of Orthopedics and Rehabilitation at Fort Belvoir. We'll be exploring today the topic of imposter syndrome and also their own unique framework. It's Bring Your Own Chair Framework. And I'm quite curious about what does that mean exactly, and we'll all find out.

What I do know is it's a five-step approach designed to help healthcare leaders recognize and overcome it. So with that, I'd like to thank both of you for being here. And if it's okay, we'll start off with the first question, which is how has this become an area of interest to the both of you?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: My interest in the concept stemmed from my experience in my career as a clinician leader. I'm a physical therapist in the Army. And about 10 years into my career, I was fortunate enough to attend the Army-Baylor Dual Masters of Business and Masters of Health Administration program. I was drawn to the potential to not only impact the patient directly as a provider, but more broadly as a healthcare leader.

It was crossing the chasm from clinician to clinical leader that I began to feel that uncertainty that sometimes accompanies growth and new spaces. I knew I had value to bring from my clinical perspective and additional study from the program, but I wasn't sure how to get that proverbial seat at the table.

And at the time, I didn't really understand this as experiencing imposter syndrome. That really came once I shared my story and experiences with Tiara and the rest of our Bring Your Own Chair team, that it really had a name for those feelings.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Thank you for having us, Marty and ACHE. We're really excited for the opportunity today. So, I really started to learn about and feel imposter syndrome or actually have a name for it when I was in my doctoral program in public health. I'd heard about it from colleagues at that time in a dissertation writing group that we were part of.

Writing a dissertation, my goodness, one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, and we would often encourage each other to think about our track records and previous success that had prepared us for the moment that we were in so that we could succeed. Feeling like an imposter means that you doubt your abilities or your accomplishments despite this previous evidence, you know, that you're competent.

And we tend to worry that others may eventually discover us and that we're not as capable as they think. And I think it's so common for us to worry about this because we often set unusually high standards for ourselves.

Host: So, it sounds like for both of you, this is really coming out of your lived experiences. And I'm wondering, why do so many accomplished leaders such as yourself struggle with self-doubt? And also, too, is why might they also have a hard time saying it out loud?

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Yeah. Going back to what I was just mentioning about setting unusually high standards for ourselves, it's exactly that. I think we've encountered so many people, who this message resonates with, and they often struggle with self-doubt.

So many of us, you know, probably a lot of us listening are high achievers. We may have difficulty accepting and internalizing positive feedback, and maybe we chalk it up to luck. And I think we compare ourselves to each other very often. I know that I do. We don't know that other people are struggling with things or making things up as we go along because we're not talking about it.

And it can be difficult to acknowledge that we may not know something, and that can increase that self-doubt. And I think the more responsibility we have, the more consequential conveying uncertainty can become. But the less permission we may feel to actually reveal that. And we've had so many accomplished and incredible leaders confide in us that they have struggled with imposter phenomenon their entire careers, and these are even, you know, as CEOs.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So, building a little bit off of what Tiara was just saying, the experience of imposter syndrome, and we've all felt it at some point, that can feel extremely dissonant with your identity as a healthcare leader. And that friction that you're feeling internally that you think no one else is feeling is incredibly uncomfortable.

And actually, that friction between your feelings and action can really diminish the capacity to lead. So, not only is this an individual problem, but as we'll get into, as we further discuss the concept, more of an organizational issue.

Host: So, it seems like some themes around distress and this minimization. And speaking about minimization, how does imposter syndrome cause people to minimize their own contributions?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So in a nutshell, imposter syndrome is the tendency to attribute your successes to external factors. That constant feeling of vigilance that you're one mistake or one misstep away from being found out as a fraud, and that you haven't really earned your seat at the table, right? So, we kind of say the same thing, like, "Oh, I just got lucky," or, "I was in the right place at the right time."

And you'll hear a lot of diminutive modifiers like, "I was just thinking," or, "This may be a dumb question, but..." And that accompanies a lot of our early careerists, and you can really spot that quite quickly. It's a way of sort of hedging against your own ideas, to distance yourself so that if your thoughts or your input isn't accepted or well-received, that you kind of have an out for yourself.

On the other side of the spectrum, you can see some with the difficulty of accepting praise or basking in the glow of a well-earned accomplishment. You might move immediately to the next thing, feeling that if you're not in constant motion towards achievement, it's always this elusive milestone over the horizon.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: I definitely think we're touching on a lot of these themes more than once, which is wonderful. And I would just add that achievement actually can paradoxically make self-doubt harder to admit or disclose. I think the more accomplished we become, the more we may think, "At this point, I'm supposed to know what I'm doing, right?" And I don't know if we actually reach that. And admitting uncertainty can feel increasingly risky, like Lindsey mentioned, "They're going to find me out," you know.

Host: So, Lindsey also mentioned about early careers, and you've also talked about accomplished leaders. So in what ways does the imposter syndrome differ across the career life cycle?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So, thinking about this question, the concept that comes to mind is momentum. For the early careerist, they may have difficulty in getting started, right? Finding the room, finding the table, getting a seat there. It can feel overwhelming, like where do I even begin? And that can breed inertia, the difficulty to even start or to take that first step.

For the senior leader, imposter syndrome may present as the inability to stop or to say no, because so much of their identity may be related to their career and achievements. Continuing on that hedonic treadmill may be how more of a senior leader copes with imposter syndrome. Maybe where the early careerist is more comfortable, they lean in in those spaces. But when it comes to a new space, whether that's technology, leveraging AI, or participating in a more collaborative working group, those imposter feelings may emerge. And it's not a static experience. It can often fluctuate depending on the environment and the context.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: I really like Lindsey's point about momentum. I also think that the questions that we ask about ourselves change across the career life cycle. And early on, it could be, you know, do I belong here? Mid-career, this can shift to, am I really as capable as people think I am? You know, I'm continuing to promote.

And for senior leaders, it may become, can I continue to live up to what I've already accomplished? And I think at that point, you know, you have a reputation, you have a title, and perhaps an entire professional identity that you feel responsible for maintaining. And I think that connects to Lindsey's point about not being able to say no or stop.

You may keep achieving or working to because achievement has become one of the ways that you continually prove to yourself that you still belong. And I do think that transitions can reset that cycle, too. You know, you can be incredibly confident and accomplished in one environment and suddenly feel like an imposter again when you enter a new role or an organization or, you know, are rolling out a new technology or going into a new area of expertise.

And so, like Lindsey said, I don't necessarily think that imposter syndrome simply decreases as we get more senior. I think the source of the self-doubt changes and can shift, and different environments can reactivate it throughout a career.

Host: Yep. So, imposter syndrome shows up in different ways across the career life cycle. And then, both of you touched upon this as well, it goes beyond just the individual's experience and then maybe, you know, factors such as systems and culture and processes have an influence on it. So, with that regard, what are some things that leaders can do to address those influences?

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Yeah. It's such a great question. I think if we recognize that this phenomenon of these impostery feelings is not only an individual experience, but can also be reinforced by systems and culture, then we can't put all of the responsibility on the individual to simply become more confident.

You know, be more confident. You know, leaders should ask what it may be about the environment that may be creating or reinforcing these types of feelings. We can create, you know, as leaders, clearer expectations. We can provide meaningful feedback, recognition, make opportunities for maybe early careerists or other individuals and pathways more transparent.

I think we can also normalize asking questions and admitting as leaders that we don't know everything, and that comes with some of that authenticity. And how are we encouraging an environment of psychological safety where our teams can take interpersonal risks? I also think sponsorship matters, mentorship, you know. Mentorship says, "I'll help you navigate this," and sponsorship says, "I believe you belong in this room, and I'm going to help you create access to that." And I think that can be particularly powerful when organizational norms or informal frameworks leave people questioning whether they belong, because I think there's a big social informal component to this as well.

And I think ultimately that leaders can create those cultures where people don't have to feel that they're continuously proving themselves, that they belong in that room.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: And as we've highlighted, those experiencing imposter syndrome tend to be those high achievers with incredibly high standards, and those same high achievers may be self-selecting out of growth opportunities that the organization desperately needs. And so if you're talking about succession planning or developing young leaders, it becomes an organizational imperative to address it, not only at the personal level, but across the organization.

Host: Yep. So really, a multi-pronged stroke, approach, if you will. So at the individual level, maybe the work unit level and the organizational level and the cultural level. So, I'm curious about bring your own chair framework. So, tell me, what does the analogy represent and then how did you bring this concept to life, if you will?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So, I remember exactly where I was when ideas of tables and chairs and the metaphor of the adage, you know, getting a seat at the table emerged. I'm somewhat energized by the creativity that comes from adapting a skill set into new spaces, kind of seeing that intersection and seeing things in a different way.

I'm a physical therapist, as I mentioned, but I began to crave expanding my skill set and influence beyond direct patient care. You know, how could I influence the system at large? How can I get a seat at this new table? it wasn't enough for me to simply wait for an invitation. I wanted to really prepare myself and lean into these new spaces. I wanted to bring my own chair, and that's kind of where it all started. From there, I shared that little seedling of an idea with some friends, admittedly with mixed results. But I had recently met Tiara down in San Antonio, and I mentioned this idea of tables and chairs and these five steps, and how we should totally get a crew together and present at Congress in 2024. But I'll let her take the rest of the story from there.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: It's wonderful, because I remember that conversation vividly. And I was a little hesitant at first, not just with the framework, but the fact that Lindsey thought we would get accepted to present at ACHE Congress. But I mean, its all very meta when you think about the framework and what creates imposter phenomenon in all of us.

But when we started pulling the thread on the idea, I did feel like something was there, and it was an experience that both of us and our other colleagues, Allison and Amelia, were dealing with in our lives in different capacities at the time. We're often told to find a seat at the table, but nobody really tells you what to do if there's not—you know, what does that look like? Is there a readily available seat waiting for you? You know, what is this?

And so from there, we started asking, "What does bringing your chair actually look like in practice? How do you prepare yourself? How do you actually get comfortable being uncomfortable? Like, what does that look like? How do we leverage tools, and how do we intentionally step into spaces where we can contribute to, you know, be effective, and how do you then replicate that with others beyond just individual impact?" I think it's about recognizing a lot of what you bring to the table and again, you know, that's resonated with a lot of people that we have found and as we've continued to develop it into something more tangible and actionable.

Host: So, speaking about tangible and actionable, your first step is find a table. So, what does that really look like in the real world for people that are first exposed to this model? Like, find a table. Well, how do I do that?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: Okay, Marty. So, every one of us, no matter where we're at in our lives, we're sitting at multiple metaphorical tables in both our personal and professional lives. For those listening, think about all the different areas where you invest your time. These can be framed as tables, whether that's your local run club you attend, maybe a volunteer group you organize.

Professionally, it might be a working group that you sit on. At some of these tables, maybe you're at the head, maybe you're leading that initiative or that group. Maybe some you're just barely squeezing in on the edge and you're like, "Do I even belong here at this table?" And some tables you're just looking to find the room.

The amount of tables or these opportunities can really be overwhelming. So professionally, finding a table implies that you're actively engaged in your field, that you're curious, and that you're seeking to support the organization and the values really of patient care and whatever the mission is of that organization.

This also implies that you've engaged in some personal reflection, and that can be uncomfortable. We need to uncover what are your interests? What are your passions? What are your strengths? And most alarmingly, what are your weaknesses? And really being real about that. This framework is purposefully called Bring Your Own Chair, right?

So, we want to emphasize the personal work that comes with that. It's about understanding your goals and preparing yourself to bring value to the spaces, not just barging into places where you want to be, but maybe your skill set doesn't align yet. But how can you get there, right? So honestly reflecting on your strengths and weaknesses. And from there, you can narrow that scope of tables, which can feel overwhelming, areas that you want to further engage, and that may be well-suited to your strengths.

You may select a table where, "Hey, I'm really good at this, and I could maybe mentor some others," or "I see a place in the organization where they could leverage my strengths, or maybe you want to reduce the gap that you've identified in a weakness. So maybe it's an area that you know that you've assessed internally that you need growth, and maybe there's a table that aligns with that. But at the end of the day, they all should be aligned with your goals.

Host: So with that is, making me think is find your table. You could be doing that across the career life cycle. And one thing that I was struck about your framework is that there's a shift in questions from how do I build my own confidence to how do I help others belong too. So, talk more about that shift.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Thank you for pointing that out, Marty. We do feel like this is applicable to people at any stage in the life cycle. It just can mold and meet you where you're at, and that's what we love, you know? We felt like a lot of the research and the writing that was out there on this topic was missing systems-level thinking when it came to addressing the phenomenon.

What responsibilities do leaders and organizations have for creating cultures where imposter phenomenon thrives? And what do we owe our people and our teams when addressing the impact that that can have on achieving our goals, possibly combating burnout, workplace satisfaction, I mean, all the way to patient outcomes, and so many other obstacles that we are navigating in the healthcare space right now. There are a lot, right?

So, it's our responsibility as leaders, and I think my military experience, you know, speaking for myself, has instilled this in me, that we have the responsibility to make tables accessible to others. I think it's that second and third generational leadership. Who are we developing behind us? Because we're all eventually going to pass the torch and move on. And I think that shift was important to us because leadership is not just about finding your own opportunities. It's about creating them for other people, you know? And so, the questions become: Who are you inviting? Whose voice is missing? Who are you asking for? Who are you choosing to develop? Eventually, success in that space becomes less about whether you have a seat at the table and more about what you do with the seat once you have it.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: And, you know, the healthcare industry isn't alone in being at an inflection point. Rising costs, strained workforce, uncertainty and change. Leaders really need to maximize the potential and the contribution, not just of themselves, but everyone on the team. And we can only do that through building the bench, investing in mentorship, and underwriting the risk that comes with letting others grow and lead within new roles.

This can create a really amazing positive feedback loop, that can transform the way that we engage the workplace and accomplish strategic goals. And again, from the research, we know those with imposter syndrome are those high achievers. So really, we're just shooting ourselves in the foot if we're not being actively engaged in this space to empower future leaders to lead.

Host: And it sounds like your model is very much is we need to be proactive and not just reactive. But the other piece too that I was struck by is you also talk about leaving the table and how you have to reframe a departure from rejection to maybe redirection. So, what does that look like practically? Like, how do you leave the table or does someone kick you out the table?

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Both can happen. And so, these were some of those, right? These are some of those other considerations that we didn't quite incorporate into the five steps, but we're like, "Okay, well, what else? You know, how do we start it again? Like, we were saying, it meets you where you're at in whatever stage or situation you may be going through. And leaving the table is really about recognizing that not every table is meant to be yours forever, right? Sometimes we stay, because we worked so hard to get somewhere or because leaving may feel like failure or rejection, or we're being asked to leave, which absolutely can sting, and we don't want to minimize those experiences.

So, take time to mourn when it's tough. But there are times when the opportunity just really no longer aligns with your values or your growth. You know, we don't want to get stagnant or where might we need to be to make the greatest contribution in our lives and in our careers if that's what we want.

And in practice, this means being willing to reassess and look inward, which is why that self-awareness is so critical. You're asking yourself, you know, am I still growing here? Am I contributing in a meaningful way? Is this where my time and my energy are best spent? And sometimes the answer, which can be hard to admit, is no. And leaving never diminishes what you accomplished at that table. It may just mean that you're redirecting your energy towards a place where you can have a greater impact. And there's confidence in knowing when to pull up a chair, but there's also confidence in knowing when to, you know, pick it up and move somewhere else. A rejection can often be a redirect, and it's just time to move forward.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So, I enjoy healthy doses of self-deprecation, and I always joke with the bring your own chair team that I've experienced this step of either being asked to leave a table or leaving a table more than anyone else on the team, but there has to be one of us, right? I've experienced that pain of a position not working out whether that was due to team dynamics or differing priorities of the organization.

It can be really devastating if you internalize that as a personal rejection rather than a professional redirection. And so, within the framework, we really reinforce, again, that reflection and ownership of strengths and gaps. And that redirection, you can instead frame it as a forced pause. It's an opportunity to reevaluate your professional journey.

It's extremely relevant to me currently, because I just moved into a new position 30 days ago, and I just received word that there was an issue with the administrative process and priorities, and I'm going to be moving back to my former position. Now, I gave myself the weekend to mourn, right? And I'm choosing to accept this redirection as that forced pause to evaluate my goals and passions against my strengths and weaknesses. I'm going to regroup, and I'm going to move forward.

And something else that often gets overlooked is we're more than our profession, right? So, are there tables in my personal life that I can also invest in, reallocate time towards? This framework is incredibly malleable.

Host: I love that. So, there could be multiple tables at the same time, if you will, and almost like a portfolio, kind of diversify perhaps to protect the downside risk. Well, I love that. So, I'm wondering, since you kind of developed this framework, how has it evolved over time? Maybe if at all, maybe it hasn't.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: Well, I can tell you we certainly feel less alone with our experiences of imposter syndrome. Reframing the experience from, "I don't belong here. I'm not qualified. I'm going to fail," to "I bring a unique skill set. I care about my team and my patients, and I have high standards." It's a way to really flip the script and draw power from what previously may have felt like fear.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Yeah, it's definitely made me more confident in certain spaces and just really paid dividends. And we've already mentioned this. But initially, we really did approach this concept largely from the individual perspective. And, , you know, what do I bring? Do I have the courage to bring my own chair?

And of course, those things still matter very much, but my thinking has expanded. I'm much more interested now in the environment around the individual. You know, what is it about our organizations, the colleagues that we surround ourselves with, the culture that we're working in, or our leaders that make someone question why they belong in the first place? And once we have our seat, what are we doing to make it easier for others to find theirs?

And so for me, the framework has evolved from being about individual confidence and agency to also being about that leadership responsibility, creating the environments where people can contribute and grow and belong without constantly feeling like they have to prove themselves. I'm absolutely, you know, as a professor, interested in research on leader inclusiveness and strong teams and how they can mitigate these feelings of imposter phenomenon.

Host: Yep. So definitely, it's evolved from the individual you said to plus looking at organizations and systems and maybe a little bit more of a research kind of lens perhaps a little bit later. So, I know, and you said it is, that you delivered a presentation at the ACHE Congress, and I'd imagine is that you've presented this framework to other audiences. So I'd love to hear what kind of feedback are you getting, and are you incorporating any of the feedback or not?

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: Yeah. So we've presented this concept across different platforms within ACHE, different audiences, and what we've really found is that it resonates across the spectrum, from early careerists to senior executive. Again, providing that mental schema to evaluate and reflect on imposter feelings. If you're seeking growth and expanding into new spaces, you're likely to encounter some amount of imposterism.

And what we're really seeking is to demystify that experience by ourselves being radically open with our own experiences and blunders. And we've had incredible responses, people leaving feedback saying that they chose to interview for a position that they were previously self-selecting out of. or, you know, we've also heard, "Okay, I love the framework, but what now? How do I get started?" And again, that led us to develop additional tools that people can use to, as they work through each of those steps. And we've shared those in kind of some longer format sessions.

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: Yeah, we've definitely created a lot of tools based on the original framework and the feedback that we've gotten, and I think we're also all much more able to go deeper in the concepts. And speak with more conviction about things, because of what we've seen in the field. And hearing it resonate with so many different people in all stages of their career and the way it's kind of taken off for us has just been really incredible.

Senior leaders are taking tools to their teams. We have early careerists feeling bolder in what they're doing and coming and telling us about it, and they're more likely to take leaps. Like Lindsey said, we've had multiple people say, "I'm going for the job," or "I just joined a new board. And if not me, then you know who?" And it's just been really wonderful to see.

Host: So, you're making a definite impact in many, many different ways, which is wonderful, I'd imagine. So, what can leaders do with regard to resisting imposter syndrome?

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: I love this question, because I actually wouldn't use the word resist. We're more in the frame of mind to embrace it, harness it, leverage it, name it, claim it, all of that. You know, get comfortable naming self-doubt rather than assuming that it means that you aren't ready. And one of our team members, Allison always says, "You'll never feel ready because ready is not a feeling, it's a decision."

So, keeping evidence, you know, we think about what, what action items, keeping evidence of your contributions and your accomplishments and learning to accept and internalize positive feedback without immediately trying to explain it away. We also say, like what we've benefited from, building a trusted network of peers and mentors who can give you that accurate perspective when your own assessment of yourself may be distorted because we really can—you know, I talk about my inner critic and naming my inner critic Agatha and how our inner critics, you know, are often not our own voices and they can be really, really mean to us.

And I'd also encourage leaders to get comfortable being uncomfortable, right? Like just lean into that. You don't have to feel completely confident before you step into a new space or take an opportunity or speak, you know, contributing your perspective. Sometimes confidence actually follows action versus preceding it. And we talk a lot about this in our recent article in the healthcare executive issue and also in our leadership newsletter where we're giving more of that practical application of Bring Your Own Chair.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: Yeah. And imposter syndrome, it's incredibly prevalent, but what hasn't been incredibly prevalent is the open discussion surrounding those feelings. So, we're all out here doing our best, but thinking that we're the only ones feeling this way, which just is not the case.

And for me, how I choose to be empowered through knowing where my gaps are is if I'm in a new space, let's say I'm like leading a working group, right, with professionals across different functional areas. I will highlight areas that I bring expertise in, where I'm confident in, but I will also very deliberately highlight areas where I have gaps.

And what that does, that signals to the other people at the table who might have been like, "Ooh," like, "What am I doing in this group?" to to speak up and to own like, "Hey, where you're weak, like I have strengths here." And that's how we're going to build sustainable holistic solutions for incredibly complex problems.

So, I find that this transparency is received well, and it also signals that I engage in that meaningful reflection that we've been talking about multiple times, admitting gaps and weakness can paradoxically empower a team towards shared workload and cohesion

William “Marty” Martin, PsyD (Host): Yep, and I love that in terms of that transparency and even maybe perhaps a little bit vulnerable as well. Yep, and that being seen as a limitation but a strength. So, I know both of you are fellows in the American College of Healthcare Executives, and a question that we like to ask fellows who've kind of earned that credential is, how has the fellowship credential advanced your career?

Tiara Walz, PhD, FACHE: I've been a fellow with ACHE since 2018, and it's been an important part of my career. It's a lot more than a credential to me, right? I feel like a lot of us would say that, but ACHE has helped me to stay connected to what is happening across the healthcare executive administration profession, and I'm able to continue learning as the healthcare environment becomes more and more complex.

And ACHE is just always there. It's on the cutting edge to kind of tell us what's going on, and I think this has become even more valuable in my career because I've moved out of the hospital a bit, and I'm not working as much as a practitioner, but now working more in academia and academic leadership.

So, at Army-Baylor, where I work, I have the privilege of teaching and mentoring the next generation of healthcare leaders. And I love introducing our students to ACHE early in their careers and watching them go to local chapter events and build those professional connections across the Army and across the ,services.

My involvement in ACHE's also opened doors that I never anticipated. I'm now the Army Regent for the American College of Healthcare Executives, and I've become increasingly involved at the national level and getting to work through District 6, which is the other military services in the VA. And with our local chapters, it's connected me with just incredible colleagues, mentors, and friends.

You know, ACHE's genuinely been one of the most rewarding parts of my professional life, and becoming a fellow was an important milestone in deepening that connection.

Lindsey Umlauf, DPT, FACHE: So as a physical therapist, my Fellow of ACHE, I see it really as a signal to other healthcare leaders that I've broadened my skillset and scope to lead in roles outside of my direct profession. I've invested in professional development, and I've earned the credential. And one of my favorite things to do is to ensure other clinicians, other healthcare professionals, that they do belong in this space.

It's not just for healthcare administrators, but we also need those clinical practitioners with a seat at the table within ACHE. So, I find that having those with different backgrounds and professions at the table can really build, again, those sustainable solutions that we're really seeking for our complex healthcare environment. And obtaining the FACHE credential is a great way that I've brought my own chair.

Host: I love that in terms of you have the table and you brought your own chair. So, I want to thank you both so very much, Lindsey and Tiara, for a very kind of focused and inspiring presentation about your framework, is Bring Your Own Chair framework. And I'm pretty confident that those that have been listening and watching will find some value from that.

And I would encourage you all to look out for the September, October twenty twenty-six edition of the Healthcare Executive, where an article will be featured on Bring Your Own Chair framework. So with that, I want to thank you very much for being part of the Healthcare Executive podcast from the American College of Healthcare Executives. And if you want to watch any more episodes, please visit ache.org, and have a great day.

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