Selected Podcast
Financial Literacy for Students, Residents, and Physicians
The pursuit of medicine as a career can be immensely rewarding in many ways. It also presents many financial challenges from managing student debt to employment decisions. These challenges also present opportunity to strengthen one’s financial future with careful thought and planning. This important podcast explores some of the financial challenges and opportunities that face medical students and young practicing physicians.
Featuring:
Seger Morris, DO, MBA, CPE, FACOI, FACP
Family to more than 15 osteopathic physicians spanning 3 generations, Dr. Morris earned his medical degree from Lincoln Memorial University-DeBusk College of Osteopathic Medicine after a non-traditional path to becoming a physician. With a BS in Investment Finance, MBA in Strategic Management, and experience in business, management, and leadership prior to entering medical school, the business and policy of healthcare were top of mind throughout his training. During residency training at Magnolia Regional Health Center (MRHC) in Corinth, MS, he served as Chief Resident, completed a Health Policy Fellowship sponsored by the American Osteopathic Association (AOA), and served on the Board of Directors of the Mississippi Osteopathic Medical Association (MOMA) among many other hospital and medical society committees. After completing residency, he served in several roles at MRHC including Lead Hospitalist, Executive Director of Magnolia Regional Community Care Clinic, Associate Clinical Professor of Internal Medicine, Clinical Quality Officer, and Medical Director of the Clinical Documentation Management Program. Dr. Morris now serves as Division Chief for Mississippi Internal Medicine Programs and Program Director of the Baptist Memorial Hospital-North Mississippi Internal Medicine Residency in Oxford, MS. Additionally, he is the Regional Assistant Dean and Director of Health Policy Programs for William Carey University College of Osteopathic Medicine, and lectures locally, regionally, and nationally on topics ranging from Internal Medicine, to Health Policy and Leadership, to Clinical Documentation and Billing. He is a Past President of MOMA, previously served the AOA as Chair of the Bureau of Emerging Leaders and as a member of the Board of Trustees. He currently serves as a delegate for the AOA House of Delegates and the Mississippi State Medical Association Annual Session, and serves on the Board of Directors of the American Osteopathic Foundation. For his influence and service, he has received several leadership awards and is inducted as a Fellow of the American College of Osteopathic Internists and the American College of Physicians. He and his wife, Kellie, live in Oxford, MS with their four children; and he enjoys traveling, sports, family, friends, and entrepreneurship in his free time. Transcription:
Joey Wahler (Host): When starting a medical career, money problems are not what the doctor order. So we're discussing financial literacy from medical students, residents and physicians. Hi, welcome to the American College of Osteopathic Internist Podcast Docs Off the Clock. Juggling the business of medicine and caring for patients means doctors always seem to be on the clock. Docs Off the Clock features some of today's best voices in healthcare with tips on how to live a better balanced life. Thanks for listening. I'm Joey Waller our guest, Dr. Seger Morris he's program, director of the internal medicine residency at Baptist Memorial Healthcare in Oxford, Mississippi, Dr. Morris, thanks for joining us.
Dr Seger Morris: Yeah, good to be here.
Joey Wahler (Host): Great to have you. So first, what What would you say are some of the unique financial challenges for medical students, residents and early career physicians, generally speaking? And then in a moment, we'll get into some more specifics.
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, relative to a lot of other professionals, the biggest thing is just the sheer scale of the debt burden, that physicians graduate with. So they're kind of staring at that all through training and then when they get out in practice, right on day one, it's like, man, I've got this huge debt burden that I've gotta figure out how to tackle. And so that's something that I think it's not exclusive to our profession, but certainly the scale of it, is something we don't see in other professions.
Joey Wahler (Host): Sure. And speaking of which of late, of course, in the news, there's been much about student loan, forgiveness, debt forgiveness. Is any of that trickling down to your people?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think to some extent, certainly there's a lot of opportunity for physicians for various forgiveness programs. But with the income that a lot of physicians have, a lot of the benefits that you hear about in the news, tend to be phased out, by the time it reaches a, physician. So a little bit of a yes and no to that question.
Joey Wahler (Host): Gotcha. Now we'll talk more about debt burden in a moment, but first, how big a problem overall is managing money and managing debt for those breaking into the medical field?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, it's a big deal. You know, if you think of the traditional path to becoming a physician, a lot of the exposure, in the formal education of physicians is really in sciences. And, in a lot of physicians, didn't have a career or anything before going to medical school. And so upon graduation, while they are very well educated, and extensively educated, a lot of that exposure doesn't stem around money. Either in the business of medicine, or in personal finance. So, you kind of have this perfect storm of people that complete their training and enter into a field of generally the mid to high earner category.
But without a lot of experience and what to do with that. Although we don't make anywhere near as much money as professional athletes, they're the extreme version of people who fall into high earner category. And then you hear these horror stories about just hiring somebody away who ultimately mismanages their money for them. And the same thing can happen very frequently, but on a bit smaller scale, to physicians.
Joey Wahler (Host): Understood. It's really the question of what to do with so much money so soon. So let me ask you next. What would you say medical students can do to begin to get their financial houses in order early on in their medical career?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think the biggest thing is to recognize that this is something that you need to educate yourself on. When we're going through training, we're so very focused on making sure we're positioning ourselves to do right by our patients, by learning the pathophysiology in the scientific basis of disease. And then, in residency training, actually practicing doing that at the bedside. but we don't need to forget about that there's this other aspect of life, our personal finances.
And if that house isn't in order, then it's gonna be very difficult to take care of, other people. so recognizing as a medical student, that this embeddedness is a very real thing that is going to have to be tackled in some way, at some point. And then on the other hand, recognizing that your income is going to change at various points, in your career, and there's a lot of financial interplay between that debt burden and the income changes.
Joey Wahler (Host): Right. So Dr. Morris that said with a medical education being so expensive. What are some of the keys for managing loans and debt burden?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, as a medical student, one, just doing everything you can to minimize the actual debt that you're taking on and only taking on the loans, that are necessary. Learn from other people's mistakes, right? Well, me personally, I remember making a comment to a friend of mine when I was in my first year of medical school that I didn't want, living off of loans to compromise my lifestyle. Well, that naturally led to a little bit of, excess student loans being taken out, in order to accommodate that. And I certainly paid the price later on because of all the interest and everything that would build up. So step one, as a medical student is certainly being very pragmatic about budgeting and making sure that you're only taken out loans that are absolutely necessary.
Joey Wahler (Host): How about financial advice for someone a little older, a little further along in their career, a young physician just starting their career aside from managing the dead burden of loans. What other advice do you have?
Dr Seger Morris: There's really three, clear transition points along this continuum. There's the medical student where you're actually taking out student loans and living off of those. And then you get into, residency training, fellowship training. And at that point you're actually getting an income and although it's not what most people consider to be quote, doctor pay. But it is an income and it is a decent living to live off of. and at that point, really you're obligated to start paying back your student loans because you have an income.
But then the other transition point and the other phase is when you complete your training and are out in a full, independent practice as an attending physician. and that's where the dynamic would really change. And so, when we think about that continuum, the advice is really for one, educate yourself and make sure that you're aware of what's on the horizon. But two, as you go through each of those transition points to really make sure that you have a good plan and strategy in place. So from the sheer specifics of the strategy, That's gonna depend on a lot of things.
It's very individualized, just like the same way we individualized patient care. Do you have a family at that point in your career? Are you considering starting a family at that point career? Do you have inheritance or some other source of income, alongside? Does your income that you're getting in residency, you as an attending physician? There's a lot of, interplay that we need to recognize needs to be tailored to the individual at that point.
Joey Wahler (Host): Now there's a difference isn't there, between a doctor working for assets versus working for money. Explain that to us, please.
Dr Seger Morris: This kind of comes back to what I was saying about the individualized nature of things and that There's different, points along your career of being a student and being a early career physician as a trainee or as an attending physician. And all along that pathway, we all have this idea that we're providing a service, to our fellow man and, giving back to society. And that's really the driving force behind, I would say the vast majority of physicians is that's why we do what we do.
But when we get into practice, if we recognize this debt burden, and then what we do on a day to day basis just becomes a way to earn money, to pay off a debt. Well, then we're really functioning as just going to work, having a job. And that sense of purpose can really leave us. So, what I have found, is a very effective strategy to mitigate that is to say, well, yes, I recognize I have this debt burden and I have to pay that off. But what I really need to make sure that I don't do is take on additional unnecessary debt.
That then requires me to trade my time for money as people do in kind of the classic JOB. If what physicians can really put forth an effort to do is to use their earning power that they now have as a independent practice physician to take that revenue, take that income stream and apply that into, investments that, generate other cash flow, for them. Then they can use that investment in order to live off that asset that they've now invested money in, provides cash flow.
Pay for their needs, etcetera. Where they no longer have this debt related obligation to go to work. And that means that they're working from a sense of purpose and passion rather than the J O B mentality.
Joey Wahler (Host): Sure. And now you've led me beautifully into my final question, which is with regard to investments and even just spending in general, any greater financial risks that you think doctors need to be aware of as opposed to others.
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, the financial risks are all inherently the same, there's the risk of, not capitalizing on an opportunity and there's the risk of what could you have spent your money on otherwise. And then there's the risk of losing money when you invest. But for physicians, I talked earlier about being considered high income earners, and anytime you have folks with money, whether it be real or perceived, people who provide services related to that are gonna want to capitalize on that and really market heavily.
And so physicians are a target for a lot of, sometimes well intended and sometimes not so well intended, financial advisors or investment brokers, ecetera, that you could potentially be, a victim of scams and schemes, ecetera, to put your money into. So that comes back to the biggest, most important take home point. I think of all of this is to make sure you're educated. The more educated you are about your own personal finances and, investment strategy, the more you'll be able to avoid and put your guard up when something doesn't feel right. When you're being sold on something that maybe you shouldn't be a part of.
Joey Wahler (Host): Yeah. Great advice. Indeed. Well, folks we trust, you're now more familiar with financial literacy for med students, residents and physicians, Dr. Seger Morris. Thanks so much again.
Dr Seger Morris: Absolutely, glad to be here.
Joey Wahler (Host): Great to have you once again, and thank you out there for spending a little time with us today, we do look forward to future podcasts where we'll continue exploring issues of importance to you. For more information, please contact the ACOI directly 800-327-5183. Again, that's 800-327-5183, or please visit acoi.org. Again, acoi.org. And you can email acoi@acoi.org. Again, acoi@acoi.org. And you can also follow the organization on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. If you found this podcast helpful, please do share it on your social media. Until next time. Be well. I'm Joey Wahler.
Joey Wahler (Host): When starting a medical career, money problems are not what the doctor order. So we're discussing financial literacy from medical students, residents and physicians. Hi, welcome to the American College of Osteopathic Internist Podcast Docs Off the Clock. Juggling the business of medicine and caring for patients means doctors always seem to be on the clock. Docs Off the Clock features some of today's best voices in healthcare with tips on how to live a better balanced life. Thanks for listening. I'm Joey Waller our guest, Dr. Seger Morris he's program, director of the internal medicine residency at Baptist Memorial Healthcare in Oxford, Mississippi, Dr. Morris, thanks for joining us.
Dr Seger Morris: Yeah, good to be here.
Joey Wahler (Host): Great to have you. So first, what What would you say are some of the unique financial challenges for medical students, residents and early career physicians, generally speaking? And then in a moment, we'll get into some more specifics.
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, relative to a lot of other professionals, the biggest thing is just the sheer scale of the debt burden, that physicians graduate with. So they're kind of staring at that all through training and then when they get out in practice, right on day one, it's like, man, I've got this huge debt burden that I've gotta figure out how to tackle. And so that's something that I think it's not exclusive to our profession, but certainly the scale of it, is something we don't see in other professions.
Joey Wahler (Host): Sure. And speaking of which of late, of course, in the news, there's been much about student loan, forgiveness, debt forgiveness. Is any of that trickling down to your people?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think to some extent, certainly there's a lot of opportunity for physicians for various forgiveness programs. But with the income that a lot of physicians have, a lot of the benefits that you hear about in the news, tend to be phased out, by the time it reaches a, physician. So a little bit of a yes and no to that question.
Joey Wahler (Host): Gotcha. Now we'll talk more about debt burden in a moment, but first, how big a problem overall is managing money and managing debt for those breaking into the medical field?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, it's a big deal. You know, if you think of the traditional path to becoming a physician, a lot of the exposure, in the formal education of physicians is really in sciences. And, in a lot of physicians, didn't have a career or anything before going to medical school. And so upon graduation, while they are very well educated, and extensively educated, a lot of that exposure doesn't stem around money. Either in the business of medicine, or in personal finance. So, you kind of have this perfect storm of people that complete their training and enter into a field of generally the mid to high earner category.
But without a lot of experience and what to do with that. Although we don't make anywhere near as much money as professional athletes, they're the extreme version of people who fall into high earner category. And then you hear these horror stories about just hiring somebody away who ultimately mismanages their money for them. And the same thing can happen very frequently, but on a bit smaller scale, to physicians.
Joey Wahler (Host): Understood. It's really the question of what to do with so much money so soon. So let me ask you next. What would you say medical students can do to begin to get their financial houses in order early on in their medical career?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think the biggest thing is to recognize that this is something that you need to educate yourself on. When we're going through training, we're so very focused on making sure we're positioning ourselves to do right by our patients, by learning the pathophysiology in the scientific basis of disease. And then, in residency training, actually practicing doing that at the bedside. but we don't need to forget about that there's this other aspect of life, our personal finances.
And if that house isn't in order, then it's gonna be very difficult to take care of, other people. so recognizing as a medical student, that this embeddedness is a very real thing that is going to have to be tackled in some way, at some point. And then on the other hand, recognizing that your income is going to change at various points, in your career, and there's a lot of financial interplay between that debt burden and the income changes.
Joey Wahler (Host): Right. So Dr. Morris that said with a medical education being so expensive. What are some of the keys for managing loans and debt burden?
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, as a medical student, one, just doing everything you can to minimize the actual debt that you're taking on and only taking on the loans, that are necessary. Learn from other people's mistakes, right? Well, me personally, I remember making a comment to a friend of mine when I was in my first year of medical school that I didn't want, living off of loans to compromise my lifestyle. Well, that naturally led to a little bit of, excess student loans being taken out, in order to accommodate that. And I certainly paid the price later on because of all the interest and everything that would build up. So step one, as a medical student is certainly being very pragmatic about budgeting and making sure that you're only taken out loans that are absolutely necessary.
Joey Wahler (Host): How about financial advice for someone a little older, a little further along in their career, a young physician just starting their career aside from managing the dead burden of loans. What other advice do you have?
Dr Seger Morris: There's really three, clear transition points along this continuum. There's the medical student where you're actually taking out student loans and living off of those. And then you get into, residency training, fellowship training. And at that point you're actually getting an income and although it's not what most people consider to be quote, doctor pay. But it is an income and it is a decent living to live off of. and at that point, really you're obligated to start paying back your student loans because you have an income.
But then the other transition point and the other phase is when you complete your training and are out in a full, independent practice as an attending physician. and that's where the dynamic would really change. And so, when we think about that continuum, the advice is really for one, educate yourself and make sure that you're aware of what's on the horizon. But two, as you go through each of those transition points to really make sure that you have a good plan and strategy in place. So from the sheer specifics of the strategy, That's gonna depend on a lot of things.
It's very individualized, just like the same way we individualized patient care. Do you have a family at that point in your career? Are you considering starting a family at that point career? Do you have inheritance or some other source of income, alongside? Does your income that you're getting in residency, you as an attending physician? There's a lot of, interplay that we need to recognize needs to be tailored to the individual at that point.
Joey Wahler (Host): Now there's a difference isn't there, between a doctor working for assets versus working for money. Explain that to us, please.
Dr Seger Morris: This kind of comes back to what I was saying about the individualized nature of things and that There's different, points along your career of being a student and being a early career physician as a trainee or as an attending physician. And all along that pathway, we all have this idea that we're providing a service, to our fellow man and, giving back to society. And that's really the driving force behind, I would say the vast majority of physicians is that's why we do what we do.
But when we get into practice, if we recognize this debt burden, and then what we do on a day to day basis just becomes a way to earn money, to pay off a debt. Well, then we're really functioning as just going to work, having a job. And that sense of purpose can really leave us. So, what I have found, is a very effective strategy to mitigate that is to say, well, yes, I recognize I have this debt burden and I have to pay that off. But what I really need to make sure that I don't do is take on additional unnecessary debt.
That then requires me to trade my time for money as people do in kind of the classic JOB. If what physicians can really put forth an effort to do is to use their earning power that they now have as a independent practice physician to take that revenue, take that income stream and apply that into, investments that, generate other cash flow, for them. Then they can use that investment in order to live off that asset that they've now invested money in, provides cash flow.
Pay for their needs, etcetera. Where they no longer have this debt related obligation to go to work. And that means that they're working from a sense of purpose and passion rather than the J O B mentality.
Joey Wahler (Host): Sure. And now you've led me beautifully into my final question, which is with regard to investments and even just spending in general, any greater financial risks that you think doctors need to be aware of as opposed to others.
Dr Seger Morris: Well, I think, the financial risks are all inherently the same, there's the risk of, not capitalizing on an opportunity and there's the risk of what could you have spent your money on otherwise. And then there's the risk of losing money when you invest. But for physicians, I talked earlier about being considered high income earners, and anytime you have folks with money, whether it be real or perceived, people who provide services related to that are gonna want to capitalize on that and really market heavily.
And so physicians are a target for a lot of, sometimes well intended and sometimes not so well intended, financial advisors or investment brokers, ecetera, that you could potentially be, a victim of scams and schemes, ecetera, to put your money into. So that comes back to the biggest, most important take home point. I think of all of this is to make sure you're educated. The more educated you are about your own personal finances and, investment strategy, the more you'll be able to avoid and put your guard up when something doesn't feel right. When you're being sold on something that maybe you shouldn't be a part of.
Joey Wahler (Host): Yeah. Great advice. Indeed. Well, folks we trust, you're now more familiar with financial literacy for med students, residents and physicians, Dr. Seger Morris. Thanks so much again.
Dr Seger Morris: Absolutely, glad to be here.
Joey Wahler (Host): Great to have you once again, and thank you out there for spending a little time with us today, we do look forward to future podcasts where we'll continue exploring issues of importance to you. For more information, please contact the ACOI directly 800-327-5183. Again, that's 800-327-5183, or please visit acoi.org. Again, acoi.org. And you can email acoi@acoi.org. Again, acoi@acoi.org. And you can also follow the organization on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. If you found this podcast helpful, please do share it on your social media. Until next time. Be well. I'm Joey Wahler.