Selected Podcast
A Guide to Building Mentoring Relationships with Black, Indigenous and People of Color
Deb Washington discusses strategies on how to recruit and retain a diverse nursing workforce of BIPOC professionals (Black, Indigenous and People of Color).
Transcription:
Bill Klaproth: This is a special AONL podcast as we speak with session presenters from the AONL 2022 Conference. With me is Deb Washington. She is the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Health and Community Partnership Manager at Massachusetts General hospital as we talk about a guide to building mentoring relationships with black indigenous and people of color.
This is Today In Nursing Leadership, a podcast from the American Organization for Nursing Leadership. I'm Bill Klaproth. Debbie, it is great to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time on such an important topic. So we're going to be talking about more diversity in nursing. We definitely need that. So can you give us the roadmap of how we got here and where are we at now?
Deb Washington: Well, we've been at this work of bringing more diversity to nursing for decades. I think what has changed the landscape for us is all of the social justice issues that have come to be part of the national conversation post-COVID and the need for more diversity in nursing around health inequities is the reason why we are having more energy, if you will, around the importance of diversity in nursing
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, the energy around this for the reasons you stated are very important. And thankfully, some people's eyes are being opened to this and awareness is building, attitudes are starting to change again, which is really important. So you said we've been at this for decades now trying to build more diversity in nursing. What are some of the tactics or things that you're using to build diversity in nursing?
Deb Washington: I think most of us in the profession and particularly those of us in leadership positions want to change the numbers so that the demographics of nursing reflects more diversity. So in terms of describing diversity 101, it's basically about recruitment and retention. How does each organization, how does each nurse leader work with human resources or work with their staff to encourage people to come to our individual organizations to take care of patients.
Bill Klaproth: Well, that's very easy to remember, recruitment and retention. Those really are the two key elements when we talk about gaining more diversity in nursing. Can you talk about each for us, maybe some of the things that you're doing to promote recruitment of nurses and also some of the things you're doing to help retain nurses of color?
Deb Washington: Exactly. And I'm happy to do that. Word of mouth is the best way to understand who's out there looking for a job and the staff that we're looking to hire. A satisfied staff person who is already working for us as leaders is the best ambassador to encourage others to apply. To be involved with being a clinical practice site for nursing students of color is a great way to be known and to give a nursing student an experience in our organization. It is also wonderful to be engaged in volunteering in communities of color, not only to learn in a hands-on way around the issues, but it's also a way of becoming known. That's the most concrete way I can suggest for all of us to think about recruitment.
And in terms of retention, and our conversation is about BIPOC staff, once we have a BIPOC person working for us, we need to stay in touch with what that work experience is like for that BIPOC person. Are there challenges in terms of being a member of the team? Are there challenges in terms of the kinds of instabilities and pushback that can come from patients and families, particularly when it becomes to race relations? And to stay in touch with those concerns for a person who's working for us is the best way to retain people that we hire and that we want to continue to work with.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's really good stuff, Debbie. So you said when it comes to recruitment, word of mouth is really important, be a credible practice site and then be engaged in volunteering of communities of color. When it comes to recruitment, it sounds like you really have to stay in touch with that person's work experience, so you can see if, "Oh, something's not going right here" or "Um, it seems like there's something. She or he might be dissatisfied or something." Is that right? You really kind of have to monitor that situation and stay on it if you see any cracks appearing, if you will.
Deb Washington: That's exactly right, Bill. Information around what it's like to be black or Hispanic or Asian or indigenous comes in the stories that we have to tell about our experiences. And as leaders, we need to be in touch with those stories at all times.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's so true. You have to be in touch with those stories. So earlier, Debbie, you said it comes down to, you know, our work is we're trying to change the numbers. So can you tell us where we're at? How have the numbers changed? Are we going in the right direction? Are we making progress?
Deb Washington: I'm happy to say we are definitely going in the right direction. When I first entered nursing and I got my bachelor's in '86, nursing was in like the 95 percentile of being white, profession for white women back in those days. And today, we're around 85%, 86% white. So that's tremendous change.
Bill Klaproth: Well, that's good. And hopefully, like we said, this latest awareness will enhance those numbers and will increase the diversity for the BIPOC community in nursing, which is really, really important. Debbie, for someone listening to this podcast who may be saying to themselves, "What are some of the things I can do?" you already gave us great tips already. What is the key takeaway or where does someone start? What can they do to enhance their numbers and start in a direction of building more diversity in their own hospital or healthcare?
Deb Washington: I'll go back to COVID as a point of awareness. When we think about health disparities and now the conversation is around racialized medicine, and when we're talking about doing research, we have to be aware of what voice is not present that we need to hear. So we need to understand the communities that surround where we practice. And if the communities that surround us or examples of the work that needs to be done in terms of solving these issues of health disparities, then we need to go out into those communities because those members of the community are not going to seek us out if our reputation isn't what it needs to be or if their patterns of seeking care have never included perhaps our individual organizations. So my bottom line message and takeaway for those of us who care about these issues is to go outside the doors of our organizations and enter into the lives of people who live in communities that surround us.
Bill Klaproth: Okay. So you said we've got to get into the communities. We have to seek them out. They're not going to seek us out. So again, really good advice on how someone can really start in this process of improving the diversity in their own hospital or healthcare system. Deb, let me ask you this, we've made progress so far, you've talked to us about that, what is still out there that's getting in the way? What is a hurdle that is impeding our progress and slowing us down as we try to get results quicker and faster? What is in our way still?
Deb Washington: I think, honestly, we're getting in our own way in terms of a lack of awareness. We, as people who belong to different racial groups, do not socially interact with one another. We are not part of each other's social reality, each other's world, if you will. So if I'm only living and working with people who look like me and are coming from my background, I'm not even going to know that somebody is missing, because I'm simply not aware or conscious. To me, that means that there is work to be done in terms of becoming aware of who's missing and who's not at the table. And that work needs to be driven by how we go out in terms of being nurses and nurse leaders to hear what are the issues that need to be addressed. Because if we don't have the awareness or not conscious of it within our own house, then we need to go out and visit somebody else's house to broaden our perspectives.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's really impactful. So it sounds like what you're saying then is instead of just socializing with the people like us, we need to get out and try to understand the BIPOC community better. Is that what you're saying?
Deb Washington: Yes I am. And to realize that there is a BIPOC community in our work life, in the geography in which we live and work, and it's very easy to separate ourselves from those communities. It takes work.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah. And I would imagine even more so for white people, right? Trying to get to know people of color, trying to be friends with them, trying to understand what their life is like, understanding what they're going through, right? It's making that effort, if you will, to get to know somebody that doesn't look like you. Is that right?
Deb Washington: What I often tell people is that a failure to notice results in a failure to act.
Bill Klaproth: Oh, I like that. A failure to notice is a failure to act.
Deb Washington: That's right.
Bill Klaproth: That's good. Everyone tweet that out. I want you to give Deb Washington credit for it. That's a tweet right there. Good job, Debbie. That's awesome. Good stuff.
Deb Washington: Thanks, Bill.
Bill Klaproth: I love it. So this is really eye-opening and enlightening. And for someone listening to this, you've just given us some great information on how we can improve diversity in nursing when it comes to the BiPAP community. Debbie, as we wrap up, is there anything else you want to add? Anything else you want to say about this mission?
Deb Washington: Yes. You just opened up a space for me to step into, Bill. I am so wanting for national nursing organization, and I have my eye on AONL because they're a natural to do this. We need a national nursing organization to step into this space of being a convener for the kind of conversation that you and I are having. Somebody to say, "We're not going to separate ourselves from this common thread in nursing according to discipline or specialty." That X nursing organization will be the convener to bring us all together, to have a concerted effort around addressing diversity in nursing and consequently having an impact on disparities in health.
Bill Klaproth: I love everything you said there. We need a national convener, someone like the AONL to articulate what needs to be done, right?
Deb Washington: That's absolutely true.
Bill Klaproth: Debbie, you might have just found yourself as a committee chairwoman heading this up. Congratulations. You may have another job.
Deb Washington: Let's not put any ideas into anybody's head, Bill.
Bill Klaproth: Now you've done it, Debbie. Congratulations. You're going to be heading up the committee. And you sound like you'd be the perfect person for it.
Deb Washington: I do have a passion for this.
Bill Klaproth: And you know what it takes people like you that are passionate about issues like this to move the needle and get things done. There's no doubting that.
Deb Washington: I appreciate it.
Bill Klaproth: Well, Debbie, it's been a delight talking with you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. You've really enlightened all of us. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate this.
Deb Washington: Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Bill Klaproth: And once again, that is Deb Washington. And for more information, please visit aonl.org. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out the full podcast library for topics of interest to you. This is Today In Nursing Leadership. Thanks for listening.
Bill Klaproth: This is a special AONL podcast as we speak with session presenters from the AONL 2022 Conference. With me is Deb Washington. She is the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Health and Community Partnership Manager at Massachusetts General hospital as we talk about a guide to building mentoring relationships with black indigenous and people of color.
This is Today In Nursing Leadership, a podcast from the American Organization for Nursing Leadership. I'm Bill Klaproth. Debbie, it is great to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time on such an important topic. So we're going to be talking about more diversity in nursing. We definitely need that. So can you give us the roadmap of how we got here and where are we at now?
Deb Washington: Well, we've been at this work of bringing more diversity to nursing for decades. I think what has changed the landscape for us is all of the social justice issues that have come to be part of the national conversation post-COVID and the need for more diversity in nursing around health inequities is the reason why we are having more energy, if you will, around the importance of diversity in nursing
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, the energy around this for the reasons you stated are very important. And thankfully, some people's eyes are being opened to this and awareness is building, attitudes are starting to change again, which is really important. So you said we've been at this for decades now trying to build more diversity in nursing. What are some of the tactics or things that you're using to build diversity in nursing?
Deb Washington: I think most of us in the profession and particularly those of us in leadership positions want to change the numbers so that the demographics of nursing reflects more diversity. So in terms of describing diversity 101, it's basically about recruitment and retention. How does each organization, how does each nurse leader work with human resources or work with their staff to encourage people to come to our individual organizations to take care of patients.
Bill Klaproth: Well, that's very easy to remember, recruitment and retention. Those really are the two key elements when we talk about gaining more diversity in nursing. Can you talk about each for us, maybe some of the things that you're doing to promote recruitment of nurses and also some of the things you're doing to help retain nurses of color?
Deb Washington: Exactly. And I'm happy to do that. Word of mouth is the best way to understand who's out there looking for a job and the staff that we're looking to hire. A satisfied staff person who is already working for us as leaders is the best ambassador to encourage others to apply. To be involved with being a clinical practice site for nursing students of color is a great way to be known and to give a nursing student an experience in our organization. It is also wonderful to be engaged in volunteering in communities of color, not only to learn in a hands-on way around the issues, but it's also a way of becoming known. That's the most concrete way I can suggest for all of us to think about recruitment.
And in terms of retention, and our conversation is about BIPOC staff, once we have a BIPOC person working for us, we need to stay in touch with what that work experience is like for that BIPOC person. Are there challenges in terms of being a member of the team? Are there challenges in terms of the kinds of instabilities and pushback that can come from patients and families, particularly when it becomes to race relations? And to stay in touch with those concerns for a person who's working for us is the best way to retain people that we hire and that we want to continue to work with.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's really good stuff, Debbie. So you said when it comes to recruitment, word of mouth is really important, be a credible practice site and then be engaged in volunteering of communities of color. When it comes to recruitment, it sounds like you really have to stay in touch with that person's work experience, so you can see if, "Oh, something's not going right here" or "Um, it seems like there's something. She or he might be dissatisfied or something." Is that right? You really kind of have to monitor that situation and stay on it if you see any cracks appearing, if you will.
Deb Washington: That's exactly right, Bill. Information around what it's like to be black or Hispanic or Asian or indigenous comes in the stories that we have to tell about our experiences. And as leaders, we need to be in touch with those stories at all times.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's so true. You have to be in touch with those stories. So earlier, Debbie, you said it comes down to, you know, our work is we're trying to change the numbers. So can you tell us where we're at? How have the numbers changed? Are we going in the right direction? Are we making progress?
Deb Washington: I'm happy to say we are definitely going in the right direction. When I first entered nursing and I got my bachelor's in '86, nursing was in like the 95 percentile of being white, profession for white women back in those days. And today, we're around 85%, 86% white. So that's tremendous change.
Bill Klaproth: Well, that's good. And hopefully, like we said, this latest awareness will enhance those numbers and will increase the diversity for the BIPOC community in nursing, which is really, really important. Debbie, for someone listening to this podcast who may be saying to themselves, "What are some of the things I can do?" you already gave us great tips already. What is the key takeaway or where does someone start? What can they do to enhance their numbers and start in a direction of building more diversity in their own hospital or healthcare?
Deb Washington: I'll go back to COVID as a point of awareness. When we think about health disparities and now the conversation is around racialized medicine, and when we're talking about doing research, we have to be aware of what voice is not present that we need to hear. So we need to understand the communities that surround where we practice. And if the communities that surround us or examples of the work that needs to be done in terms of solving these issues of health disparities, then we need to go out into those communities because those members of the community are not going to seek us out if our reputation isn't what it needs to be or if their patterns of seeking care have never included perhaps our individual organizations. So my bottom line message and takeaway for those of us who care about these issues is to go outside the doors of our organizations and enter into the lives of people who live in communities that surround us.
Bill Klaproth: Okay. So you said we've got to get into the communities. We have to seek them out. They're not going to seek us out. So again, really good advice on how someone can really start in this process of improving the diversity in their own hospital or healthcare system. Deb, let me ask you this, we've made progress so far, you've talked to us about that, what is still out there that's getting in the way? What is a hurdle that is impeding our progress and slowing us down as we try to get results quicker and faster? What is in our way still?
Deb Washington: I think, honestly, we're getting in our own way in terms of a lack of awareness. We, as people who belong to different racial groups, do not socially interact with one another. We are not part of each other's social reality, each other's world, if you will. So if I'm only living and working with people who look like me and are coming from my background, I'm not even going to know that somebody is missing, because I'm simply not aware or conscious. To me, that means that there is work to be done in terms of becoming aware of who's missing and who's not at the table. And that work needs to be driven by how we go out in terms of being nurses and nurse leaders to hear what are the issues that need to be addressed. Because if we don't have the awareness or not conscious of it within our own house, then we need to go out and visit somebody else's house to broaden our perspectives.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah, that's really impactful. So it sounds like what you're saying then is instead of just socializing with the people like us, we need to get out and try to understand the BIPOC community better. Is that what you're saying?
Deb Washington: Yes I am. And to realize that there is a BIPOC community in our work life, in the geography in which we live and work, and it's very easy to separate ourselves from those communities. It takes work.
Bill Klaproth: Yeah. And I would imagine even more so for white people, right? Trying to get to know people of color, trying to be friends with them, trying to understand what their life is like, understanding what they're going through, right? It's making that effort, if you will, to get to know somebody that doesn't look like you. Is that right?
Deb Washington: What I often tell people is that a failure to notice results in a failure to act.
Bill Klaproth: Oh, I like that. A failure to notice is a failure to act.
Deb Washington: That's right.
Bill Klaproth: That's good. Everyone tweet that out. I want you to give Deb Washington credit for it. That's a tweet right there. Good job, Debbie. That's awesome. Good stuff.
Deb Washington: Thanks, Bill.
Bill Klaproth: I love it. So this is really eye-opening and enlightening. And for someone listening to this, you've just given us some great information on how we can improve diversity in nursing when it comes to the BiPAP community. Debbie, as we wrap up, is there anything else you want to add? Anything else you want to say about this mission?
Deb Washington: Yes. You just opened up a space for me to step into, Bill. I am so wanting for national nursing organization, and I have my eye on AONL because they're a natural to do this. We need a national nursing organization to step into this space of being a convener for the kind of conversation that you and I are having. Somebody to say, "We're not going to separate ourselves from this common thread in nursing according to discipline or specialty." That X nursing organization will be the convener to bring us all together, to have a concerted effort around addressing diversity in nursing and consequently having an impact on disparities in health.
Bill Klaproth: I love everything you said there. We need a national convener, someone like the AONL to articulate what needs to be done, right?
Deb Washington: That's absolutely true.
Bill Klaproth: Debbie, you might have just found yourself as a committee chairwoman heading this up. Congratulations. You may have another job.
Deb Washington: Let's not put any ideas into anybody's head, Bill.
Bill Klaproth: Now you've done it, Debbie. Congratulations. You're going to be heading up the committee. And you sound like you'd be the perfect person for it.
Deb Washington: I do have a passion for this.
Bill Klaproth: And you know what it takes people like you that are passionate about issues like this to move the needle and get things done. There's no doubting that.
Deb Washington: I appreciate it.
Bill Klaproth: Well, Debbie, it's been a delight talking with you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. You've really enlightened all of us. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate this.
Deb Washington: Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Bill Klaproth: And once again, that is Deb Washington. And for more information, please visit aonl.org. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out the full podcast library for topics of interest to you. This is Today In Nursing Leadership. Thanks for listening.