Bill Klaproth (Host): This is Today in Nursing Leadership, a podcast from the American Organization for Nursing Leadership.

I'm Bill Klaproth, and with me is Jasmine Bhatti founder and CEO of Navi, nurse Jennifferre Mancillas co-founder and COO of Adni And Omid Razmpour co-founder and CEO of Workforce iq. Together we'll explore how nursing entrepreneurship is reshaping patient care and strengthening the healthcare workforce. Jasmin Jennifferre and Omid, welcome.

Thank you so much for stopping by the podcast booth today. We appreciate it. Omid let me start with you. What experiences at the bedside shaped your interest in entrepreneurship and system level change in healthcare?

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): Yeah, I think my, my bedside experience much like, like uh, every nurse that has bedside experience, I started my career.

During the peak of the pandemic in 2020, uh, I started in the COVID ICU And what I saw was, um, a lot of failure and I saw a lot of problems. And there were a lot of potential solutions to those problems. I, I saw that nurses didn't have the resources and support that we needed to be successful. I witnessed it firsthand along with all of the trauma that comes from seeing patients pass away and family members at home, not able to set, spend time with their family members.

Um, all of that. As well as experience with, uh, lack of leadership support drove me to work towards a PhD and my MBA and trying to tackle these problems and look at the workforce in a different way so that we can make larger scale change.

Host: So your direct experience through that really led you to where you are now.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): Yeah. And I'm sure it's the same with

Host: Absolutely. So Jasmine, let me ask you, why are nurses uniquely positioned to become innovators and entrepreneurs within. Healthcare, why do we need this?

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Well, um, I think first off, like nurses are just so well positioned in so many ways. Number one, just inherently who we are, we are collaborators.

We work across multiple teams. We are really great at delegating, um, making decisions on the fly And we can handle a lot of stuff under really stressful situations. Um, and with. Really calm decision-making, which I think is really, uh, important for entrepreneurs. But as a whole, you know, nurses see the problems from almost every lens.

Every lens, right? Like we see it as nurses ourselves. We see what our physician colleagues are experiencing. We see what the patients are experiencing, And so there's no one better positioned. Because we touch every aspect. We touch almost every device it feels like, um, and and modality. And so we know what works, what doesn't work, and it's truly our input that can drive solutions that don't just fix the problem, but they make our lives easier.

Host: So becoming an entrepreneur, thinking about the challenges that nurses are facing, really. Drives all of you to come up with these types of solutions. Would that be right?

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Yeah. You know, I heard a quote that said, um, the healer experiences the pain and comes back with a medicine. And, and I really find that to be so profound because we've experienced pain and our job as a healer now is to go back with the medicine and fix it.

So I think when you talk to most nurse entrepreneurs, they're building something from a very, uh, passionate space of they've experienced something and they never want. That to happen again. Mm-hmm.

Host: I love that quote.

Yeah.

The healer experiences the pain And then comes back with the medicine. That's really cool. Mm-hmm. Jennifferre let me bring you in on this. What structural or cultural barriers have historically limited nurses from entering entrepreneurship and innovation spaces?

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: I think there's several. I think one right off the bat is that it's a predominantly female, um, like female industry and.

You have the dutiful nurse who's doing what they're told And the following orders, And that like that has stayed with us, I think. For, for decades now. And really being able to break that ceiling and reshape that thought process. And also the, the fear of failure within hospital systems. And you can't have innovation without failure.

I mean, it is a prerequisite to success and innovation, um, And you're hard, pressed to go ahead and find innovations that has successful outcome without experiencing. Um, the things that didn't work first and being able to push the envelope and try to make things work. And it doesn't always work the first-time or the 25th time, and you always have to go back to the drawing board.

But creating this, um, this space that. Uh, accepts failure, expects it almost, and has a pathway to encourage that success and create like a system forward for innovation. I think that's the, the biggest barrier that has been created within the system at this point. I mean, we could probably list others but Those are the, Those are the top two.

And in my book on what, what, what we failed and How we can go ahead and do better.

Host: Yeah. I think perceptionally nurses. Are really not viewed at as innovators or entrepreneurs, right? That's part of the issue.

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: So sad, but we do it on a daily. I think that if you come to any nurse and your patient needs something, you're going to find a way to fashion X, Y, and Z, whether it's a piece of tape and a tongue depressor to make sure that your patient has what they need.

In a safe way. Of course, we want to make sure that we are providing excellent care. But, um, all the, all that said, we're really resourceful and we'll make sure that our patients get what they need, whether it's asking questions or finding what we need to make it happen.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): and I would say that There are a lot of solutions not created by nurses, um, who we have seen who say they're created for nurses, but not with or by nurses And the outcomes.

Um. Could be completely different if nurses were in the loop. I don't know if you have any other thoughts.

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Yeah, no, and I would just add here that um, you know, as women founders, 2% of venture funding goes to women. And, and when you think about nursing, which is a predominantly female. Profession. We're not in the best position to take an idea and actually turn it into a business because the environment around us isn't built to support us.

And that has to change with us. That's one of the largest barriers. And you know, secondly, like I pitched in front of investors and they look at me and they're like, how are you so smart for a nurse? Like there are communities that don't know. I think nurses as a whole, we've done a really good job shielding people from what.

What we do, because we don't want them to worry about the things. Mm. Like we do everything on the back. They don't see it, which is great, but at the same token, they don't even know what we do, and they can't imagine that we're sometimes intelligent enough to actually build something and do something with it.

Host: Yeah. Well, you have the know the firsthand knowledge of being at the bedside. So like Omid said, his experience at COVID seeing the challenges and like you have said, being there, you've seen it all. And you too, Jennifferre Being there, you really see the challenges. So, it kind of, it kind of hurts when Omid says people are designing things for nurses and they're not, they don't really know what's going on in there.

Right. That's kind of the issue sort. of So I, You know, potentially,

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): yeah.

I mean, as we start to move towards this AI revolution, um, one thing that really bothers me is that we're continuing to look at nurses as a number. Okay. Mm-hmm. And That is something that a lot of individuals who don't have nursing experience try and push on our profession.

So whether it's trying to optimize our staffing or our productivity, um, what we're doing is taking this individual who's this nurse who has a story, um, and they, they should be telling it and they should be listened to. And we're looking at them as a number. And I'll tell you, if you're a nurse building a company, you would never do that.

You would never do that. You know that when you're working on a unit, I as Omid have a very different story than Jasmine or than Jennifferre right? Like There are different things about us that we need to start thinking about nursing as a profession in a more holistic manner, rather than just looking at us as a number so that we can trickle down from operating margin into bottom line.

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Yeah, and just, you know, you brought up a great point because AI is like at the forefront of everything. That's what we're talking about. But AI is only as good as the humans And the data that we're putting behind it And so when nurses are not part of the conversation of how we're constructing the ai, how we're looking at it, what are we actually building towards then, are we really building the solutions that are going to be comprehensive, holistic, and really look at the diversity of the people we're caring for and think.

About every life that we're touching, not just one group of people.

Host: Yeah. Makes a lot of sense, Jennifferre

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: along the lines of, of how AI is able to go ahead and touch the diversity of the populations that we are caring for, making sure the voices that are influencing AI are diverse. Mm-hmm. Um, with the fact—and I think Jasmine and I were talking about it earlier—with the fact that, that such a large portion or population of, of, um, of.

The country, are Hispanic background. But when you look at the nursing field, there's barely 7% of the nurses who uh, have a Hispanic background, and That is just. Such a large gap That is so unfortunate. So how are we going to influence AI That is supposed to care for patients if we are not going ahead and influencing them with the cultural understanding, understandings and competencies to be able to, to.

Change what those outcomes are or, or how AI is going to respond differently. And I think that That is a whole different aspect of, of maybe back to the question of cultural barriers and like things that we could do to better, um, but having more diversity of thought, um, in, in how, who we're bringing to the table.

Mm-hmm.

Host: Yeah. That is a large gap. Mm-hmm. So it's good thing's a podcast like this and people like you are bringing awareness to that problem. For sure. So Jasmine. How can nurses then begin to recognize problems they see in daily clinical work as opportunities for innovation? How do they put that hat on and say to themselves, oh, I see something here that could be better.

I might have a solution for this.

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Yeah, so I think naturally nurses see the problems everywhere we see them. We just don't know what to do other than jerry-rigging it. So like in the, in, in the moment, we're just quick to fix it and, and put together what we've always done to make it work. But. The question is how do they take it from just, you know, like safe seizure wrapping.

Mm-hmm. Blankets around the side of beds. How do you take it from that step to like, oh, I want to build a product, right? And I think what's missing in our ecosystem, and it's something that we're seeing mentors really start to kind of come around, is how do we create an ecosystem for nurses? To be able to come and share an idea of like, Hey, here's a problem I've seen.

Now what are the next steps I can take? Because I think we're missing that right now. Mm-hmm. We need to create that place. And you know, I, I think I've spoken about this like as innovators, like we've understood what it feels like to build something and not have someone to look for. Like we want to be those people next, that like when someone has an idea, they can come to us And we can help them think through their problem, think through their solution.

Um, and be able to pitch it in a way that people will listen to them and and pay them the attention that they need.

Host: Absolutely. Let's talk about those next steps. Omid let me ask you, how do you then translate those clinical insights that Jasmine was just talking about, interest solutions that healthcare executives, investors, or technology partners understand, getting it to that level.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): So I have a, a unique perspective here. Um, I actually have completed my MBA, which is amazing. And um, you know, That is something that nurses don't often have is that business background And that education. I think it's something that's needed. I think there should be some degree of an, at least an elective course at every nursing school that talks about finance or business.

Um, And for me, that business experience was able to take me from my clinical mind and I was able to meet new people. I'd never met consultants, investment bankers. Um, I didn't know what selling meant. I didn't know what return on investment looked like, how to calculate this kind of stuff. If you're walking into a C-suite.

And you're sitting around the table with them, they speak one language and that's money. And so if you're not fluent in that language, you're not going to be successful. Plain and simple. So being able to articulate your return on investment, doing financial analysis is critical. And it's not done enough in the nursing profession.

It is done frequently in medicine, right? Because we talk about revenue generation on the, on the physician side, but uh, on the nursing side, it's not talked about enough.

Host: So speak the language of money.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): There you go. absolutely a hundred percent. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. So, Jennifferre uh, curious, what lessons, uh, have you learned that you can share with all of us while building a company focused on the nursing workforce?

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: I think that your frontline nurses matter, and I think we had a quote up earlier when we did an earlier presentation was that, um, your frontline. Impacts your bottom line of something to that degree, and that's a hundred percent the truth. And I think that each of us has touched upon it in this short amount of time.

Which is how much you need to be able to focus on what the nurses need. I think sometimes that's a, that's an afterthought or you, you focus on what the immediate needs are for staffing or what you need for X, Y, and Z to happen for whatever outcome you're looking for, but never truly to support. Like what does the nurse need in order to.

Feel supported to be successful and being able to look at it through that, that lens and who, who can do that, but a nurse who can do that besides someone who has known how overwhelming it is to be when you're a new nurse and you come into the profession. How overwhelming it is to know that you have all of this family, um, fa that all of these family events happening and all these responsibilities at work, but you still have to maintain your continuing education and your certifications and, um, you still have to be able to look at all of those aspects of your, of your profession.

Um, And so I think that That is one lesson that I've learned is like how much of a focus the workforce. It, it is a mighty industry. Healthcare, recruiting and staffing it, it's so big. But being able to focus down on what do these nurses need to be successful And then that impact will be seen within these organizations.

Host: Yeah. That makes sense. I love that line. The frontline impacts the bottom line. That makes a ton of sense. That's really good.

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): Yeah, it does. You know, and I think traditionally we've thought of just nursing in, in the hospital, right? Mm-hmm. Nurses can exist. In so many other capacities, and now more than ever, when we're thinking about hospitals at home and moving more into the community, how do nurses play a role in that, in the workforce?

Um, we have over 4 million nurses in the country, but they are experiencing significant burnout. There are challenges that they're working through. And if we don't value the nurses enough by giving them the resources, the space, um, And the grace to do what they went to school to do for like—most nurses went to school because they want to care for people.

They don't feel like they have that opportunity anymore. Mm-hmm. If we can reignite that passion and joy for them and let them love nursing again, that can have significant ripple effects in every single life that they touch. And then from there, every family that's connected to every life that they touch.

And so I think seeing nursing as an opportunity of how we transform healthcare in the country just by taking care of the nurses is like—it's a real possibility.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): Yeah. And I, I would add to that, what we know And what we have known is that when your nurses are happy and when the workforce is doing well, it touches the patients it touches your peers working on the unit.

It touches your nurse manager who's managing you, going up from there. It impacts your bottom line. Uh, it improves obviously burnout and turnover metrics. But then if you look downstream. Their patients are better, your community is better. Mm-hmm. And it all comes from nursing being the backbone of our community and our healthcare system.

And if we're not treating nurses correctly, then what do you expect is going to happen? Yeah. And that's partially what you saw during the pandemic. Yeah. You treated the nurses poorly and look what happened.

Host: Yeah,

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): and I would just add to this too, like especially when you think about nursing leaders. We exist in a system That is like very old school, right?

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: Very, yeah. Uh,

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): nurses, even at their highest level, don't always have the power that they need and deserve. Mm-hmm. Their voice oftentimes goes unheard. Um, because. Metrics when we have other people that come in and they're making decisions based on numbers and not seeing like how numbers can look in a long-term.

Like sometimes you got to invest a little bit more first, but you're going to get a much better return on the backside of things. But it takes a nurse to be able to be at the table, to be heard, And then to be valued enough that they take action on that.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): And if I could just add one metric to support that. Um, my work on the cost of nurse turnover led to Emory Healthcare investing $150 million into improving salaries.

And what happened was just astronomical, the entire system flipped on its head, right cut contract labor that was costing a lot, cut turnover rate by over 10% and flipped operating margin on its head, um, to completely change the way that. The system is running. But more importantly, when I talk to the nurses, they say, and more importantly to me, I can afford insurance.

Now I have a buffer. Childcare is more expensive, but now I am more comfortable. I can afford a car And so I can get to work easier. So it's all of these things that are happening that need to be amplified because. Paying people more, treating them better has a direct impact on outcomes.

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: A hundred percent novel.

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): And we've seen that too in

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: our,

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): in our work at Navi.

Nurses, like we're in the community setting and just by, they actually, our nurses work more than just working in a hospital. Yeah. And in working more, they're actually less burned out because for the first time they're spending four to five hours a week doing what they love again and reminding them why they became a nurse in the first place.

Host: Yep.

Yeah. Nurses are better, patients are better, the community is better. This has got to help with nurse retention too, right? Absolutely. This is a big absolutely factor as well in all of this. This has been a great discussion. One more question, and you all can jump in if you like. Jasmine, let me start with you.

Look inside your crystal ball. So what would healthcare look like if more nurses became entrepreneurs?

Jasmin Bhatti, RN, PhD (c): You know, I don't know if there's, there's a way to encapsulate that in one word, but like for me, I would say healthcare would be magical. It would be what it is, like what we've dreamed it to look like, right?

Like it would be. Care that everyone deserves, no matter their race, their color, their gender, um, and it's equitable and fair. And it is also thought, um, it, it's designed, um, by thinking about the clinicians, right? So it's, um, really thoughtful in the approach of caring for the clinicians just as much as caring for the patients

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): Okay. Yeah. Um, you know, I, I would say that I would echo that everything would be, would be different, right? Um, as we mentioned, we're closest to the bedside. We're ready to make solutions. And one, one thing that, uh, I would implore if There are any nurse leaders listening to This is give your nurses a chance, right?

You could have someone coming in, um, from Silicon Valley or have a business background or a medical background, and you're willing to give them a chance. Right. But how about the nurses that have lived it, that have seen it and are ready to act on it? Mm-hmm. So please think about us. Um, when it comes to nurse entrepreneurship and all the other nurses that, uh, will come after us and who have come before us.

We can make an impact. You just have to give us the opportunity.

Host: Yeah. Jennifferre Crystal Ball.

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: Crystal ball, I think that there's going to be more, there would be more advancements. I think that so often without this like forward thinking of entrepreneurship and like the, this innovation, there's so much fear and there there's of the unknown about what if it doesn't work.

And so I imagine that if there were more nurse entrepreneurs that there would be less fear and there would be more wins And the patients would fare better. It would be magical as jasmine. said, but yeah, less fear and more, more guts,

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): and more trust. too More

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: trust. More

Host: trust.

Well, this has been a great discussion.

I want to thank you so much, Omid Jasmine, Jennifferre thank you so much.

Omid Razmpour, RN, PhD/MBA (c): Thank you. Thank you

Jennifferre Mancillas, RN: having us.

Host: Great discussion. You bet. Once again. And that was Ja, Jasmine Bhatti Jennifferre Mancillas and Omid Razmpour If you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out the full podcast library for topics of interest to you at aonl.org/nursing-leadership-podcast This is today in nursing leadership. Thanks for listening.