Bill Klaproth (Host): Welcome to the ASHRM Podcast made possible by the American Society for Healthcare Risk Management to support efforts to advance safe and trusted healthcare through enterprise risk management. You can visit ASHRM, that's ashrm.org/membership to learn more and to become an ASHRM member. I'm Bill Klaproth.

On this podcast, healthcare risk professional journeys, as we talk with Tatum O'Sullivan, Director, Safety, Risk and Patient Family Relations at Mass General Brigham Medical Group. And Tatum is also the 2024 ASHRM President. Tatum, welcome.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Thank you so much, Bill. It's great to be here today.

Host: Yeah. And it's always great to talk with you, Tatum. So, thank you again for your time. So, let's start off with this first. Can you give us a brief background on yourself, if you would?

Tatum O'Sullivan: Sure. I became a nurse in 1996 after going to college immediately from high school. While in high school and college, I worked at a local hospital as a secretary, front desk staff. And I began working there as a staff nurse shortly after college. From there, I became a quality and safety specialist and stayed at that organization for almost 14 years across the point of my whole career there. And then, I left to get some formal management experience. So, I went to a local VNA and I managed the home health aid department. I only stayed there a couple of years because I was really itching to get back into risk management. And from there, I went to a different hospital and stayed there about four years, initially starting as a Risk Manager and then becoming the Director of Risk Management.

And then from there, I went to Mass General Brigham. I went to one of their practice groups, and I was their first Ambulatory Risk and Patient Safety Manager, and developed into a director position after a few years. And then from there, we expanded. And now, I'm the Director of Safety, Risk, and Patient Family Relations for the medical group.

Host: What a great career. And you certainly have a lot of experience in different areas, and now the 2024 ASHRM president. So, thank you for your service. We appreciate that.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Oh, thank you. I'm actually very happy to serve. It's an organization that I'm very proud to be a part of.

Host: Absolutely. So, Tatum, from what I understand early on in your career, you were named as a defendant in a malpractice claim. Can you tell us about that and how it has now impacted your work as a risk professional later in life?

Tatum O'Sullivan: I want to say about two years into my nursing career, I was a bedside nurse at the time. I learned that I had been named in a claim. And I remember finding out, I was told on a Friday afternoon, and I was told to come back to work on Monday and that I would meet with somebody from claims. So, I worried all weekend, I came back on the Monday, I was brought into an office, introduced to somebody I had never met before, and the risk manager left me there to meet with him. We discussed the case. And I explained multiple times that I had never cared for the patient, although my name was in her record because of care plans and things like that, that I helped out with. But I had never been her bedside nurse.

And three years maybe went by. I had one conversation with an attorney who had been assigned to represent me. That was by phone. I think probably three and a half years in, I went for my deposition. I met my attorney that morning. I had to drive into Boston. I worked about 45 minutes north of there. And I kept trying to explain to the attorney that I didn't understand why I was named. And about two hours into my deposition, I was finally able to explain that to the plaintiff's attorney. And shortly after that, I was dropped from the claim. But I would say it was probably a four-year process, and very stressful and scary. And I remember not feeling like I had anybody that I could talk to, because one of the first things you're told when you're named in a claim is that you can't discuss this with anyone. So, it was a time of feeling really alone early on in my career.

Host: Oh, my gosh. So for almost four years, you lived with that stress of not knowing what was going to happen and feeling like, "Hey, I shouldn't be a part of this, but still I'm going to have to go to court for this."

Tatum O'Sullivan: Exactly. And I really felt like there was nobody to talk to. And when you asked me how does this impact you later in life as a risk professional, it's something I carry with me every time I meet with somebody who's newly named in a claim. I want to make sure that they never feel alone, that they know that they can talk to me, that I'm happy to go with them when they meet with their attorney, that I'll go with them to trial, I'll sit in the courtroom just so they have a familiar face. My experiences have definitely shaped the way that I handle anybody named as a defendant in a case.

Host: You don't want them to feel as you felt for those four years feeling alone in this.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Exactly. It has definitely helped me to sympathize and empathize with them in a different way because of my experiences.

Host: So because of this malpractice claim, did that peak your interest in wanting to learn more about risk management?

Tatum O'Sullivan: It definitely did. I was already doing some quality work on the unit that I was working on at the time. But when a position became open in the Quality and Safety Department, I jumped in and was able to begin working there, and one of the first things I said to my director was, "Can I be the risk manager?" "Can I handle-" We called them incident reports at that time, "Can I handle all the incident reports?" And she held off for a week or two, and I kept asking. And then, one day she brought out probably about 70 something, I want to say 72 paper incident reports and put them on my desk and was like, "If you want to do it, you can do it. Here are the incident reports.

Host: Wow.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Wow is right. They dated back about three to four months and I just started chipping away at them. But I really learned from others who were other risk managers how to do the role. And so, that's something that was important to me is that I started connecting with other risk managers outside my organization to ask, "How did you handle these? How do you do this?" And that's probably the first time I heard of Just Culture, was probably about six months into the role. And it definitely shaped the way, again, how I've conducted and handled safety events and managing when something goes wrong.

Host: Absolutely. So, more on your journey. So then, I understand you went to work at a hospital in risk management and really didn't know anybody there. So, what was your approach coming in as a new risk manager in that situation?

Tatum O'Sullivan: Yes. So, I had taken a position prior to that at the home care organization. Really, that was so that I could get some frontline management experience. I was managing about 40 home health aides there with six supervisors that reported directly to me. And so then, I kept itching again to get back into risk, and I was able to go to a hospital that I had never worked at before. And one of the first things I did was really try to meet with people before something goes wrong. And that's something I do now as well with new employees. I always want to meet them and get to know them before they really need to be sitting down with me. I think that it takes the edge off for when things go wrong. And that's what I did. I met with leaders in the organization. I would tour the units, but not in a way that felt like I was surveying them. More like, "Oh, what's keeping you up at night? What's something you think we could work on here?" Just to get to know them and make it feel more collaborative.

Host: So, I like how you said you met people because you wanted to meet with them before something goes wrong. So, you really took a proactive approach when you got into risk management.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Yes, I think that that's probably what it's helped me, especially at that organization. I think that they felt like risk was scary or only showed up when something dark or bad happened. And so, I really didn't want that to be the way that they viewed me. And I tried to not become friends, but have them feel like I was a colleague and a peer to them so that they thought of me when something did go wrong or had a question about something, they would loop me in rather than try to hide it, which I think is something that happens a lot, is that people don't want risk getting involved because they feel like there's going to be a lot of questions and that it's going to feel like they did something wrong and maybe even add work to their plate and that's not the way I wanted them to see me.

Host: And again, it sounds like all of this is shaped from your experience from that malpractice claim you were involved in for four years early on in your career. So then, how did you hear about ASHRM or become interested in ASHRM?

Tatum O'Sullivan: I want to say early on in that position, part of the program we had with our insurance, or how we were insured, was that there was a premium credit program. And if the risk manager had their CPHRM, I think there was money that came off what we paid. And also, if their risk manager was attending risk management programs such as the ASHRM Conference, there was also a credit that was given towards what we owed. And so, those were things that really got me even understanding or knowing that there was such a thing as ASHRM.

So, I first joined my local chapter, which was the Northern New England Society for Healthcare Risk Management. We call it NESHRM. And from there, I heard about ASHRM and joined a year later. And I want to say that was in 2009, and I've been involved ever since. One of the things that was really important to me is that early on at that organization, my CEO said, "it's important for you to become a leader in the local chapter. It's going to be very rewarding." And at the time, I was scared. I'm like, "I'm pretty new to risk management still," even though at that point, I probably had five, six years experience. But I didn't feel that I had much to offer. But with her encouragement, I did. And I became secretary of the board. And then, I went on to become president-elect. And when I president-electlect, I was invited to a chapter leader meeting at the annual conference for ASHRM. And that's where I really met some key people in my life who have helped to shape my involvement with ASHRM.

So, I remember meeting Ellen Venditti, and she was the incoming ASHRM president. And she actually happened to be from Massachusetts, which I was as well. And she sort of took me under her wing. She introduced me to a lot of other people who became pretty important in my journey with ASHRM. And from there I began presenting and volunteering on committees and just getting more involved in ASHRM and then finally joining Patient Safety Faculty, which teaches with ASHRM. And I have become more and more connected as that time has gone on.

Host: So, it sounds like the networking opportunities, the people that you're able to meet and talk with and learn from really has been invaluable in your career through ASHRM.

Tatum O'Sullivan: It definitely has. I would say that the relationships and friendships that I've made through ASHRM, like I said, they've become my friends, but they've also helped to shape my career and helped me on my journey with ASHRM and professionally outside of it.

Host: So, it sounds like you had mentors that helped you up the ladder, if you will. And I'm sure you are that same person helping other people that are coming up in risk management. So, here's your chance to educate us all, Tatum, if you would. What would your advice be to someone early on in their risk management career?

Tatum O'Sullivan: My advice would be to get to know others outside your organization. They're likely doing things differently and you can learn a lot from them. Sometimes you learn what you don't want to do. Other times, you learn what you do want to do. So, that would be one of my key pieces of advice, would be to get to know people and try to learn from them. Where I work, we always say, "Have big eyes, big ears, and a small mouth." So really, take in what's going on around you, although please feel free to always speak up as well, but you really do want to learn.

And then, the other thing early on is that I would say to get to know people in your organization and get to know them before they need to know you. I think that has helped me build relationships and really have a presence as Risk and Patient Safety where they don't feel like I'm only showing up when something horrible has happened.

Host: Have big eyes, big ears and have a small mouth. That is great advice and very well said, Tatum. Thank you so much for your time. As we wrap up, is there anything else you want to add looking over your journey as a risk management professional?

Tatum O'Sullivan: I would just say that probably the things that made me most uncomfortable have probably helped me the most in my career. So, the first time presenting, I was very uncomfortable with it. Now, I present all the time. People probably want me to talk less in public settings. And that was something that I was uncomfortable with. Joining the board, again, uncomfortable. I was afraid of the work it would add. I felt like I couldn't contribute. And it definitely led to me becoming active in ASHRM and becoming ASHRM President, which is something that has been so rewarding to me, even though we're very early on in 2024. It's been so wonderful to connect with the members at their chapters or we're working on ASHRM projects together. So, that's just something that I would say, is to get comfortable being uncomfortable.

Host: And another great piece of advice. Tatum, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate it.

Tatum O'Sullivan: Thank you so much, Bill. It was great speaking with you.

Host: And once again, that's Tatum O'Sullivan. And the ASHRM Podcast is made possible by the American Society for Healthcare Risk Management to support efforts, to advance safe and trusted healthcare through enterprise risk management. You can visit ashrm.org/membership to learn more and to become an ASHRM member. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out the full podcast library for topics of interest to you. Thanks for listening.