Bill Klaproth (Host): Welcome to the ASHRM podcast made possible by the American Society for Healthcare Risk Management to support efforts to advance safe and trusted healthcare through enterprise risk management. You can visit ashrm.org, that's A-S-H-R-M.org/membership to learn more and to become an ASHRM member. I'm Bill Klaproth. And on this podcast, we talk with Katie Du Fresne about her journey as a healthcare risk professional. Katie is the Executive Director of Clinical Risk Management for Indiana University Health. Katie, welcome.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Thank you, Bill. It's nice to be here.

Host: It's great to talk with you. Interested to hear your story. So first off, Katie, could you tell us how did you get into risk management?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Yeah, I'm happy to tell you that. So actually, I became a nurse way back in 1996. I was working at a large academic medical center; first as a bedside nurse, and then I was managing the unit that I had worked on as a nurse. And I knew our hospital risk manager. We had one, even though we were quite a large center. I knew her, because I had participated in a root cause analysis with her once. And she happened to call my unit one day and I answered the phone and she was looking for a person who I didn't know, I had never heard of. And she just happened to say, "Well, I was looking for her because I'm actually going to hire another risk manager and I thought maybe she would be interested. But if you don't know her, then that's okay." And I said, "Well, tell me about that job. I'd love to hear about it." And she told me a little bit about the job and encouraged me to apply. So, I did, and that's how I started in risk management. It was really an accident, to be honest with you.

Host: The rest is history.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: That's right.

Host: Thank God you answered that phone.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Yeah, those were the days when people always answered the phone. No one answers the phone anymore.

Host: Right. Well, had you not happened to have that moment around the phone, do you think you would have pursued a career in risk management? Obviously, you had some interest in it.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I did. I'm not really sure. I really did enjoy working with her on the root cause analysis. And one of the things I liked about being a unit manager, was process improvement and investigating when things went wrong. So, perhaps I would have. I don't know.

Host: Yeah, that's interesting. So, doing this role that you have now, Katie, in your opinion, if you could tell us, what qualities make someone a good risk manager then?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I'll tell you, I really think three things. And I would say the first one is absolutely relationship building. A good risk manager has to be willing to do the hard work to build strong relationships with leadership within their organization, frontline team members within their organization, partners in quality and regulatory and operations. That takes a lot of time. It's not always easy to do. Everyone has competing priorities and more and more people work remotely. So, I think that's probably first and foremost. A good risk manager needs to build those strong relationships.

I would say second, a good risk manager needs to have strong communication skills. We are often talking to people about very sensitive subjects; having conversations when perhaps a patient has been harmed. These things are really difficult for people to talk about. So, having strong communication skills and being able to show compassion and empathy is also very important.

And then, last I would say, it's also really important for a risk manager to be resilient. A lot of our work is very heavy, is very challenging. And in order to protect your own well-being, you need to be resilient and really know what works for you to have that positive mental outlook in your work.

Host: Well, those are three great qualities you just shared with us: one, relationship building; two, strong communication skills; three, being resilient. So, obviously, it's taken you time over the course of your career to learn those things. But was there someone early on in your career that you looked up to or mentored you or was important to you as you became a risk manager, somebody that embodied these qualities?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Absolutely. There really was. In fact, it was that woman who happened to call me on the phone that day. After she hired me, she and I actually shared an office for about nine months. After that time, she received a promotion and moved on. But those were nine months that I had a colleague, a partner, someone who I trusted, who was very knowledgeable, and was right there in the same room with me most days. So, I could simply just turn to her and ask questions. And that was so valuable to me starting out in my risk management career.

Host: That phone call turned out to be very beneficial.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: It did.

Host: I love it. So, at this stage in your career, Katie, are you now mentoring people that are just entering risk management as well?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I am. Actually, I am lucky enough in my current position to lead a team of 37 professionals. Some of whom are very experienced and have been doing risk management for many years and others who are brand new to it. Many of them have a little bit of clinical experience or some operations experience and come on to our risk management team without any risk experience. And that's actually one of the things I really love about my role, is that I get to mentor new team members, and I will tell you that over the last five years that I've been in this role, I have been so impressed and thrilled with how engaged our younger professionals have been as they enter into the field of risk management. It really has been very rewarding.

Host: Well, that is certainly encouraging to hear about our younger generation being engaged like that. So, Katie, when did ASHRM come into your life? When did you become a member of ASHRM?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Well, I became a member of ASHRM in 2006, but I learned about ASHRM actually a little bit earlier than that. And I learned about it through my state chapter. After my colleague who had gotten me into risk management was promoted and moved on, I knew I needed to seek out other experts in risk management. And so, I did that by joining my state chapter. That was incredibly beneficial to me. I did make contact and really make friendships with many of the risk managers who were part of my state chapter and they became new mentors for me. And I learned about ASHRM through my state chapter. And just a couple years later, I had a boss, I was lucky enough to have a boss, a leader, who was really very supportive of team members participating in both the state chapter as well as ASHRM, the national chapter.

So, I was encouraged to join, and I did that. And in 2006, the fall of 2006, I was able to attend my first ASHRM Conference, annual conference, and I have been lucky enough to attend every year since then, except during COVID. And that was really due to a leader that I had that was so encouraging and supportive of those connections that are made by being part of both the state and national chapter and seeing the value there and encouraging that. I was really lucky to have that.

Host: Absolutely. I was just thinking as you were answering that, an ASHRM conference has got to be the safest conference anywhere in the country.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I think you're probably right about that.

Host: The floor filled with risk managers. Come on, people.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: That's right.

Host: So, Katie, you were talking about getting involved in the state chapter. How important do you feel is it for other risk managers to get involved on both a national, local level, as you mentioned? Do you encourage that?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I really do. I encourage that of the team who reports to me. I would encourage that of any risk manager, whether you're new to the profession or really have a lot of experience like I do. I think that first off, state chapters are really good at delivering education and resources that are relevant to the people who live right there in the state. Very often when you go to state chapter conferences, you're meeting people who are doing the same work you're doing in perhaps the same community. So, you share a lot of the same challenges. You share a lot of the same hardships and certainly you can learn from each other's successes. So, I think it's really important to be involved in the state chapter. Even if it's just to meet your colleagues, build those relationships, and have a friendly voice on the other end of the phone if you ever have a question.

Host: Just from the networking angle alone that it's so beneficial to meet other people that you can learn from to help you develop and build your career. Certainly, that is what the ASHRM conference is about. So, let's talk about other engagement. Are you on any committees and do you encourage people to get involved with ASHRM committees?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I really do actually. So, I currently am serving my last year of a three-year term on the ASHRM Advisory Board. And I got involved in that by volunteering to be on a committee and really that's how I got exposure to many people who I consider friends and colleagues now through ASHRM and learned about opportunities to be Advisory Board member.

And, you know, I think that volunteering even if it is small scale at first is a great way to make those connections. Not everybody can go to conference and I understand that. They are all across the country and sometimes can be very far from our homes. But even just getting involved on some of the resources that ASHRM has on the website can be incredibly valuable. You can chat with the colleagues from around country and ask questions. So, there are many ways to get involved that really don't take a lot of commitment and can be so valuable. Even the resources alone on the website are so helpful and I would encourage all risk managers to familiarize themselves with those, because so many things can be very helpful.

Host: Yeah. Great thoughts on that. Well, Katie, this has really been fun getting to know you and learning about your risk management career journey. As we wrap up, is there anything else you want to add?

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: I think I would add for anyone out there who is not currently a risk manager, but is interested in the role, the profession; I would encourage you to reach out to your risk manager at your organization or even an organization that's just in your area. Most of us are very willing to take phone calls and talk about the work we do. You know, I have a colleague who likes to say, "If you've met one risk manager, you've met one risk manager," because we all have different responsibilities, all depending on where we work. So, I would encourage people; reach out, ask questions, get more information because it really is a wonderful profession. I've been so lucky. I don't think that when I set out to be a nurse, I ever imagined that I would do risk management, it's been incredibly rewarding.

Host: Absolutely. Very well said. Well, Katie, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Katherine Du Fresne, RN, MSN, CPHRM: Thank you.

Host: And once again, that's Katie Du Fresne, and the ASHRM podcast was made possible by the American Society for Healthcare Risk Management. To support efforts to advance safe and trusted healthcare through enterprise risk management, you can visit ashrm.org, that's A-S-H-R-M.org/membership to learn more and to become an ASHRM member. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out the full podcast library for topics of interest to you. Thanks for listening.