Dr. Tanuja Gandhi (Host 1): Welcome back to Mindcast: Healthy Mind, Healthy Child, a podcast from the mental health experts from Bradley Hospital. I'm one of your hosts, Tanuja Gandhi.

Dr. Greg Fritz (Host 2): And I'm your other co-host, Greg Fritz. Today, we have Dr. Wendy Plante here with us, and we'll be talking about siblings and sibling relationships. Wendy is a psychologist and researcher here at Bradley and at our Hasbro Children's Hospital, and we're really pleased to have you join us today, Wendy. So, tell us a little bit about how you got into this interest in siblings and so forth.

Dr. Wendy Plante: Sure. I'm a pediatric psychologist, so I have long worked with families of children who have chronic illness. And in all of the settings I've worked in, we talk a lot about family-based care. But usually, we're talking about parents and children. And so, along the way, I've gotten involved in ways we can highlight that siblings are an important part of the family, an important part of children's development, and ways we can recognize them and include them in things.

 Also, I should mention that I am a sibling. I'm an older sister. I have a brother and a sister who are younger than me. And also, I'm a parent and I'm parenting two children, so siblings are an important part of my personal life too.

Host 1: Wendy, thank you so much for joining us. So, I'm hoping for our listeners today, we might have a few tips and pointers on how to manage sibling relationships at home.

Dr. Wendy Plante: That sounds good. One thing that we often don't think about is that, at least in the United States, about 80% of children have a sibling. And so, that means most children have a sibling and most parents are parenting more than one child. Also, if you exclude the school day, siblings spend more time with each other across the day, even more than the time they spend with parents or with other kids their age. So, it's really an important part of their daily lives. And also, their lives overlap more. When you think about the lifespan from being a baby to an older adult, like who you spend your lifetime with, siblings are really an important part of the picture.

Host 2: Maybe even the longest lasting relationship in that.

Dr. Wendy Plante: That's exactly right. It often is.

Host 2: Say a little bit more about that long-term impact and how important it is to development and maintaining a even keel.

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. I mean, I often think about children because that's where my work is, but I'll talk about kind of the whole lifespan. When you think about children, when they're living with a sibling, those are their first playmates. Those are the people who you learn to share with or not share with. You can compete for resources. You learn how to be a friend. You learn how to negotiate for what you want. So, siblings can be an important part of learning social skills.

And then, over time, that relationship can continue to be really important as you're going through different stages. As you're a teenager, as you face adult responsibilities and relationships, the sibling relationship often still continues to be very important. And hopefully, we'll get to talk about that too, how that can kind of change over time. But how you're doing with your sibling has also been shown to impact your mood and your self-esteem. So, it really can impact other aspects of your well-being.

Host 1: So, it sounds like sibling dynamics can change or are always changing. Can you talk to us a little bit about how these relationships typically change over time? I can imagine in certain families, the expectation might be, if you have an older sibling, you've got to always respect them and listen to them. And then, some families, siblings might be treated equal, whether older or younger. And there's so much more to the cultural aspects in familial traditions to how sibling relationships change over time. Can you talk to us a little more about that?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. Even just what you said, there's a lot to unpack there. So, you mentioned your birth order, your gender, your culture. All of those things can be important in determining what the relationship or the dynamics are like. What culture you're from determines who your siblings are. In some cultures, your cousins are considered your siblings, for example. In some cultures, siblings are considered to be, oh, they're kind of a pain, they're your rivals. Whereas in cultures that are really focused on family closeness, siblings are supposed to be your best friends. So, that can really influence how you think about those relationships. And as you said, what parents are expecting from you as an older sibling or a younger sibling.

We know that when siblings are really young, sometimes they can be a teacher or a caretaker. They can have that kind of role with little ones if you're older. When you're a teenager, things can shift a little bit. But sometimes, your siblings, they kind of know more than your parents do, like what's going on at school, who you're dealing with, what the dynamics are. And there's some pretty interesting research on teenagers showing that your teenagers can really play both a positive influence and a negative influence potentially. So, whether you take up substances, some teenagers learn how to drink and use substances because of their siblings, you know, on the negative side of things. And siblings can also be positive role models too. I saw an article recently about elite athletes who are siblings. And in the sports arena, you can learn from your sibling. You often can learn from an older sibling how to manage teamwork and how to develop athletic skills.

Host 1: Oh, that is so interesting.

Dr. Wendy Plante: So, it's like there's a lot of different ways that, through the years, siblings can play a positive or a negative role. And then, that can shift even in adulthood.

Host 2: Are there times when the sibling relationship is especially important? Where predictably their either help or stresses can be shared?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. One thing that we know is that, if you have a strong relationship with your sibling, if you're close and there's a lot of support there, it actually can be really protective if you're going through a hard time. So, for example, if parents are going through a divorce or there's something very stressful in the family, having a good sibling relationship can actually be protective so that kids actually go weather those storms better and are less likely to be depressed or be lonely in those kinds of situations.

And we know that when there's big changes, puberty, going away to college, when there's an illness in the family, the relationship between siblings can become really close or that can be a chance for siblings to really drift apart. So, that's a time where things can shift and it can be important to try to kind of use that as an opportunity to actually strengthen that connection.

Host 2: I notice I'm always thinking about our oldest child was eight years older than the youngest, and the oldest is a woman. And she was a surrogate mother, and just assumed that role. And the toddler who had a 10-year-old surrogate mother turned to either for solace and what have you. And now, they're adults and it still is to some degree evident .

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. So, what happened earlier can kind of influence what happens when you're older. One thing that has been noted too is that kids and teenagers who bickered a lot, who fought a lot, that oftentimes when you become young adults, like you reach college age, oftentimes that kind of falls away.

Host 2: That happens.

Dr. Wendy Plante: Right. That is a time where things can become more peaceful, and it's probably that brain development that happens for young adults, but also just being in new settings and maybe not being as competitive for parent attention or whatever was going on. So, yeah, it is interesting as adults get older how that sibling relationship can still be there, even if they don't even see each other a lot or talk a lot.

Host 2: So, we talked about some of the factors that can influence sibling dynamics. And one of the factors we touched on earlier was culture or family traditions. I'm sure it's not a one-size-fits-all picture. And each family is unique in its structure and its functioning. Are there other about the factors that you can think about that influence sibling dynamics?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah, I think one of the things that parents will ask, "Well, what can I do to help with the fighting or to help my children to do well when they play together or sharing?" And parents can make a difference. We often talk about the ways in which parents teach their kids all kinds of things. They can also teach them their values around importance of seeing the two of you play nicely together, or "Oh, I really enjoy it when we all do things together as a family."

Parents can kind of send those messages here and there. And also the way parents treat their kids can make a big difference in how siblings get along. So if you try to treat your children as individuals, try not to compare them too much, and try to really show that you don't have a favorite, that actually makes a big difference because siblings can sort of feel that. And it really can tamp down like competitiveness. And of course, siblings are still going to fight sometimes, but how parents kind of set the tone can make a difference.

Host 1: Now, we want to spend some time talking about the area that you specialize in, which is sibling relationships when one child has a special need. In my clinical work, I've seen that play out in different ways where if one sibling has a special need, the other might become overprotective, and take on more of a parental role. Then, there are other situations when one sibling has a special need, the other siblings become resentful, angry, feel left out, and there are a lot of complicated feelings around it.

So, what do families need to know about how that can impact the sibling experience when one child has a special need and there are other siblings who are impacted by it?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. One thing that I've experienced in talking to a lot of families is that parents are very aware of their other kids' needs and are often very worried, "How is this going to affect my other children?" And so, often, like the big messages that we give families is, number one, siblings do have a lot of needs when there's someone in the family who has a developmental delay or a new medical illness or are dealing with psychiatric, emotional, behavioral disorders. Siblings do have a lot of needs, but really a little bit can go a long way in recognizing their needs.

One of their needs is for information. So, parents can be really anxious trying to get information about the diagnosis, the treatment, but those children who are at home, they're relying on parents. They don't know anything that's going on. So, giving them a little bit of information in age appropriate ways can really help them worry less and feel like they're a part of things.

Also, just recognizing that there is going to be an impact on the other kids. There are going to be times where they're getting less attention from parents. They're getting less attention from professionals. Maybe there are therapists coming in the home or there's a lot of doctor's visits. They are going to be getting a bit. There are times where their needs are going to be kind of put in the background. So, parents can recognize that. Let siblings know they appreciate their role and what they're doing in terms of doing certain things, going to bed on their own some days or to the bus stop by themselves or helping a little bit around the house.

And then, I often let parents know you don't have to deal with this all on your own, right? So for example, there may be an aunt and our uncle who can kind of step in and give a little extra attention. Letting the school know. Schools can be really helpful for those siblings to just kind of check in and know what's going on when there's another child that has a lot of needs. And just trying to do a little bit of one-on-one attention. Don't wait until you have a whole afternoon to do it with them, but just five minutes here and there can really make a big difference.

Host 1: So what if one sibling is a teenager, and the teen has a six or 7-year-old sibling, 10-year-old sibling with autism, and they go to the same school together? I am sure there must be situations-- at least I've seen them in our clinical work-- that the teenager feels embarrassed if the child with autism has obvious behaviors that they would think are concerning or do not want to hang around their sibling. And there could be many reasons for it and not necessarily being embarrassed, but it could be that they have friends who are bullying them and then they talk about their siblings, so they want to avoid the situation altogether. There's just so many variations of that social situation. How do families deal with that particular scenario?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Well, I think that you are pointing out one thing, that's really important is that there are so many different emotions that can come into play and it can depend on the day, right? And so, part of it is for parents to recognize that there's an array of emotions that can be involved, and to talk with siblings about those emotions and being open to them and knowing that it can be normal to feel that way.

Sometimes, as you mentioned, older siblings are in the role of being the protector and they may want or not want that role out in the world at school. Sometimes, unfortunately we've heard of school personnel who go to try to find the older brother or sister because they're having trouble with the younger brother or sister. So, sometimes they're pulled into those roles. Sometimes they feel good about being in those roles. They feel good about being someone who's going to help their younger brother or sometimes older brother or sister navigate the public sphere.

So, parents checking in with. Siblings being open to whatever positive or negative emotions they're feeling and just listening can really go a long way. But it's such a complicated topic. This is why I love to talk about it and to support families with it.

Host 2: Just to get concrete here about some of the very specific things that parents can do to help siblings relationships be the best they can be, you've had a lot of experience helping families do that, what are some of the tangible approaches?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. I think part of it is recognizing that sibling relationships are fluid. They change over time. I'll often talk to parents and ask them about do they have siblings, do they have brothers or sisters? What were their relationships like growing up? Some parents are only children. So when they encounter brothers and sisters, siblings who are not getting along, they're like, "This was not what I dreamed it would be." They have no personal experience with that. How it can be love one minute and hate the next.

And so, I think that's one thing for parents to kind of be aware of what their expectations are and what their own sibling relationships were like. Recognizing that things move. They may be fighting like cats and dogs one day, but it doesn't mean they don't love each other and they're not going to be playing nicely tomorrow. So, I think taking a deep breath and recognizing that could be helpful. And then, we talked about kind of communicating to them, catching them when they're doing well together, they're sharing well, they're negotiating and providing praise and stepping in.

 The other thing that I think is important to realize is that oftentimes parents will hear, "Don't get involved when your kids are fighting." And I think it's a little more nuanced than that. When they're younger, they actually will need a little bit of coaching. They're going to need a little help from you in figuring out what to do when you're fighting over the toy or what to do when you're mad because your brother just tripped you. So, you know, the advice there is for parents not to choose sides and feel like they need to be the judge or jury, because that can really go awry. You may need to kind of step in, help teach them what are some solutions to this?

And then as they get older, you can stand back a little bit more. But they may need a little bit of help with knowing, like, how do we figure it out when we're in a middle of a squabble?

Host 1: So, what about situations where parents are worried they've already messed up. Is it ever too late to repair or strengthen these relationships? Or do you just wait for time to pass by and things are going to get better on their own?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah. It's never too late. Definitely that's the case. I think if you as a parent are wishing that things were different, you do play a really important role in helping siblings get there. But it's going to be a little bit at a time.

So, I think helping your kids to talk about how they feel about how things are going and getting their input on like, "Oh, how could we improve things," can really go a long way. Helping them brainstorm. And it might be just setting up some new routines or new rituals as a family, whether it's like family game night or the weather's nice, let's start to go to the park together. But knowing that turning the ship might take a little while, but you can have a role there and helping kind of change what's been going on and go in a new direction.

Host 2: There's so much more to sibling relationships than ordinal position, birth order. I used to think that that was the main driver. And I've learned from our interactions today and before that all these other variables are at play as well. Do you think it's possible at all to generalize about, say, birth order? Do you think that it's all just old wives' tales?

Dr. Wendy Plante: I think that, yeah, there definitely is some legitimate research in terms of birth order making a difference. But you're right, it interacts with a lot of other things. So, we do know that, just sort of generally, older siblings are in more of a position to do teaching, having a helping role. And younger siblings are often in more of that learning role. But yeah, there's a lot of other variables that play into it, like gender and culture and whether there is a special need in the family. Yeah, there's still little research that does hold some of the stereotypes might be true in some families, speaking as an older sister.

Host 2: Well, this has been a enriching conversation and we really appreciate you being here.

Host 1: Thank you so much, Wendy. I will say though, I'm sitting here reflecting on all the things I've learned and I have so much more to think about-- rather, I have so many more questions-- about how I can leverage my position as an older sibling. I mean, my siblings are obviously old enough, but trying to see what did I gain out of this?

Dr. Wendy Plante: That's right.

Host 1: But this has been wonderful. Thank you.

Host 2: So before you go, do you have any one overarching message you'd like to leave with our listeners?

Dr. Wendy Plante: Yeah, I guess, the main point, which we've been talking about, is that siblings are important. And so, I think that that's a message to send out to my colleagues who research children mental health, that the family's important, but siblings are an important piece. And I think it's important for all of us in our personal lives to think about the roles that our siblings have played. And if it's a positive relationship, call your sibling today. Say hello.

Host 1: Oh, that is so sweet. Thank you, Wendy, for joining us today. And to all of our listeners, thanks for tuning in. For more informative podcasts from the experts at Bradley Hospital, visit www.bradleyhospital.org/podcast. Until next time, take care.