Maggie McKay (Host): Welcome to Total Health Talks, your Cook County Health podcast, where we empower your journey to better health. I'm your host, Maggie McKay, and today we're going to talk with Sarah Elder, Director of Recovery Support Services and Carla Shaw, Peer Recovery Support Specialist at Cermak Health Services. In honor of National Recovery Month, we hope to highlight new promising pathways to hope, recovery and healing through today's conversation. Thank you for being here. Sarah, let's start with you. Tell us about the work Cook County Health is doing to support patients' journeys toward recovery.

Sarah Elder, LCSW, CADC: Absolutely. Thanks for having us, Maggie. So Cook County Health operates multiple clinical settings and we have recovery support services embedded in mostly all of those, including we have in our emergency rooms, both at Stroger Hospital and Provident Hospital, we have a team of recovery coaches who are going bedside, engaging with folks and navigating them to treatment. Also in our outpatient primary care settings, we operate a Bridge Clinic, which is a rapid access, low barrier clinic, to access care and probably particularly to Carla's work that we'll talk about today is we operate the health services at Cermak Health Services at Cook County Jail, where we offer recovery support services to patients who are interested engaging in medications for addiction treatment or recovery support services in the community after they leave.

Host: And Carla, I'd love to start with you by giving our audience a chance to get to know you a little bit better. Please tell us about yourself.

Carla Shaw, CADC: Hi, my name is Carla and I am a peer recovery support specialist at the Cermak department in the jail. I do help people get into treatment and help them with their aftercare. I speak to their judges, their public defenders, and I just try to help them get help after they are released from the prison.

Host: That's gotta be very rewarding. Did you work with a peer during your recovery journey?

Carla Shaw, CADC: So when I was getting clean, I actually was with the drug courts. So we didn't have like peer support specialists like we do now. It was not common like it is now. So I believe now that they have them, that there might be more people that are able to continue their recovery with the help of peer support specialists.

Host: Can you describe your role as a peer recovery support specialist now with Cook County Health?

Carla Shaw, CADC: Yes, being a peer support recovery specialist with Cook County Health is very rewarding because I'd be able to help people and show them that there is life after prison or jail. I help them and I showed them that it is possible to make the impossible possible.

Host: That's so great. Once you had some sobriety under your belt, you could have chosen any career. What made you decide to become a peer?

Carla Shaw, CADC: Well, actually since I am in recovery, I wanted to do something that I know will make a difference, and that actually was not just for a paycheck, it was actually because I've been there and I've done that, and now I'm on the other side and I could be the voice for them.

Host: And how does it feel to be working at a place like the jail where you've been during your active use and you cross paths with people maybe from your past life?

Carla Shaw, CADC: So I do cross paths with a lot of people in my past that, you know, I used to use with and I used to be in jail with. But it is really different because like now I actually see that when they see me, they have hope. They get the encouragement from me. Like, they're like, I know there's a different side.

Like I know it's possible and I've actually seen people come out, go to school, get a job and call me because they want help and they want to do what I do and which is help other people in recovery. But when I do see people that I have been in jail with, I try to make sure that they know that my job is my job and yes, I know them, but like I don't give no special privileges, so I also just show them that I'm there for them. I know what they're going through, and I will be there for them afterwards.

Host: Very professional. Speaking of, what are your professional development goals?

Carla Shaw, CADC: So recently I had passed my CADC, which is a Certified Alcohol and Drug Counselor. I had just passed that exam. I'm also in my internship for my Certified Recovery Support Specialist certification. Ad I'm also in my social work at the Wilbur Wright City College. So I am trying to just keep going and not stop until I feel hope.

Host: Boy, you are inspirational. I mean, just doing one of those programs would be a lot for most people, but you are driven. How does your experience impact your overall career trajectory?

Carla Shaw, CADC: Basically going into the jail every day reminds me of where I don't want to be again. It gives me even more drive and more like, you know, like I can't wait to go in, you know, because I actually get to like walk back out and help others, you know? And just knowing that I'm starting here will get me prepared for what I'm trying to succeed in.

You know, like in my future it'll help me and it'll prepare me for no matter where I work at, who I work with.

Host: Sarah, how do you see your specific role supporting the interdisciplinary team that you work with? Like doctors, nurses, social work?

Sarah Elder, LCSW, CADC: Yeah, I think that peer role has been so impactful on a couple of different levels, so, on the person or the patient level, as Carla talked about, not only does she instill hope, people see her and are able to hear like, wow, she's getting her education. She's in a professional role.

She's got so much of her life going for her, that she instills hope. But I think some of the other things that I've seen, is that there's also a sense of relief I feel like patients get when they talk to a peer, right? They can talk to me, they can talk to a medical provider. I have over 15 years of experience working in the substance use field.

You know, I have some professional training. I'd like to think I know a couple of things, but when our patients talk to a peer, there's almost a sense of relief that washes over them. As someone who you know, they know that Carla will understand them. They know that Carla will understand their struggles and their challenges and their hopes and their dreams and how to get there. So I think she brings that to the table. On a system level, I think our peers are really helpful just in breaking down stigma as they work side by side with nurses, providers, clinicians, you know, they're able to see people with substance use experience in a more professional role, and all the things that they bring to the table.

And, and Carla and many of our other peers have been able to provide some input on some of our programmatic opportunities. So things like, you know, when we create a flyer or if we, you know, are thinking about a workflow or how we engage, Carla and our peers are able to say, well, this is what worked for me and this is, you know, it didn't work for me and this might work for other people who are in my shoes or have been in my shoes. And so, I think the role of the peer is, is just absolutely critical in our team.

Host: Carla, how do you see your role supporting the team you work with?

Carla Shaw, CADC: I love it because like, I actually feel part of, you know, because after being judged for so long and I actually get to like be on the other side. I actually get to like tell them what are the people going through while they're in jail. Because I actually go and speak to them.

Host: Sarah, if you could wave a magic wand and change the way people are treated when they are kick-starting their recovery journey maybe for the second, third, fourth time, what would you do?

Sarah Elder, LCSW, CADC: Yeah, I think that I would, it just really reinforce that we treat this as any other chronic disease, right? You know, whether it's diabetes or heart disease. Lots of other chronic diseases like substance use disorder have relapses. Right? And it doesn't necessarily that, mean that the person failed, right?

But it really means that maybe we need a new treatment or a new approach, or different supports, right? And so I think, I would love to see more programs, more people, more clinicians take that approach rather than thinking that this is a, a personal failure, but sometimes it is really just a new approach is needed.

Host: Carla, what if you had a magic wand, what would you change?

Carla Shaw, CADC: Well first I'll change them from getting in the program, you know, like doing, not getting high at all. You know, everybody wish abstinence, but I mean, everybody has their own way of recovery. Everybody has their own journey. So if there was anything I really could change, it is just like access to like having phones when they get outta jail, the resources when they do get outta jail.

Because a lot of people are homeless that we speak to. A lot of people don't have nowhere to go at night, and they usually get released from the Cook County jail at night. So it's a risk of them either getting high again, possibly overdosing, because they don't have nowhere to go. They don't have no family or nobody wants to be bothered with them.

And if we have somewhere for them to go overnight and wait for us to actually, you know, get there and be able to like take them to treatment, detox, anything they may need. It would help and reduce a lot of overdose.

Host: That makes a lot of sense. Sarah, how can someone learn more about the substance use services, Cook County Health offers?

Sarah Elder, LCSW, CADC: We have a couple of, hopefully easy ways for folks to access. They can either Google our Cook County Health Bridge Clinic. It'll take them to a website where they can find out more services or they can call our Bridge Clinic number. Our Bridge Clinic is really our front door to services. 312-864-4MAT, or 4 4 6 2 8. Either of those, we try to make it as easy as possible for folks to get into care or just get more information.

Host: Well, thank you both so much for making the time to share your expertise and being so candid and telling us about the program and your lives. We really appreciate it.

Sarah Elder, LCSW, CADC: Thank you.

Carla Shaw, CADC: Thank you, and I cannot wait to do this again.

Host: Great. We will. Again, that's Sarah Elder and Carla Shaw. To learn more, please visit Cookcountyhealth.org/podcast. As we wrap up another insightful episode of Total Health Talks, make sure to visit cookcountyhealth.org/podcast and subscribe to our podcast, share and connect with us on social media. Stay tuned for more engaging discussions. This is Maggie McKay signing off from Total Health Talks. Stay well.