Maggie McKay (Host): Have you ever heard of an emotional piggy bank? Today, we're going to find out what it is and how it relates to children with Critical Care nurse, Allie EuDaly, and physical therapist, Nicole Hogan.

Welcome to The Parent-ish Podcast, where experts at Children's Mercy Kansas City talk about the little everyday things parents experience with their babies, teens, and in-betweens. I'm your host, Maggie McKay. Thank you both so much for being here.

Nicole Hogan: Thank you for having us.

Host: Of course. Allie, let's start with you. Could you please introduce yourself?

Allie EuDaly: Yes. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. My name is Allie EuDaly, and I am a nurse in the Pediatric ICU and Cardiac ICU at Children's Mercy. I have I've been here for 10 years, and for the last couple of years, I have also been co-chair of the hospital-wide workgroup for trauma-informed care, which I'm so grateful to be a part of, and is a huge part of why I'm here today.

Host: Oh, great. I can't wait to hear more about it. And Nicole, would you introduce yourself, please?

Nicole Hogan: Yes. Hi. My name is Nicole Hogan, and I am a physical therapist. I worked at Children's Mercy for the past several years. And throughout my time in the physical therapy department, I had several interactions with patients and families, that really brought forth this light into the emotional piggy bank, and throughout their recovery and their rehabilitation.

Host: Okay. Well, let's talk about this because I have to say, I have never heard of this, so I'm interested. Allie, can you explain what an emotional piggy bank is?

Allie EuDaly: Yes. This is such a helpful concept, and I also wanted to share that Nicole and I both have kids. And so, this has been something that has affected not just our professional work, but also the way that we each parent our kids at home. So when we think about when you have a baby and, in the first year, two, three of life, the baby cannot meet any of their own needs, right? Any of their physical or emotional needs for themselves. They need their parents or their caregivers to meet all of their needs for them. And we don't often think about it in this way because they're not verbally asking us, when they're an infant, to feed them or change their diaper or help them fall asleep. They cry to communicate their needs. But even though it's not verbal, every time that they cry to communicate a need, they are asking us for something, and every time we meet that need, we are saying yes. "Yes, I will feed you when you're hungry." "Yes, I will change you when you're wet." "Yes, I will rock you to sleep." And we say yes to our kids millions of times in those first few years of life when they can't get their own needs met for themselves. And so, as they grow and learn new things, you know, our toddlers learn to walk and talk and they start learning to go to the potty by themselves and how to feed themselves. And as toddlers learn new things, we continue to have opportunities to say yes, but then of course throughout our kids lives, the ways in which they ask for us to help them meet their needs, both physically and emotionally, changes and evolves. But we also have to start saying no, right? Like when our toddlers start learning the limits of everything and are learning how to open the silverware drawer and are pulling knives out of the drawer and, you know, various things that our kids do that start to test limits, we start saying no and enforcing boundaries and things that are super necessary and helpful for their growth and development for them to understand what is safe, what's unsafe, what is healthy for them, and what we need from them as they are members of our family.

And so when we think about the concept of an emotional piggy bank as being kind of this emotional reserve that we have in those first few years of life, we are making millions of little deposits into our kids' piggy banks every time we say yes. Every time we meet a need, every time we smile at them and tell them how much we love them, every time we take care of them and nurture them, we're saying yes. And through that first year or so of saying yes millions of times, they build this balance, a positive balance in their emotional piggy bank so that when they're a toddler and we have to start saying no, we do often get pushback from our toddlers, right? Like, we say no, and then they learn how to say no, and they're really interested in the concept of saying no, and they push those boundaries. But for the most part, they're going to be able to handle hearing no. And then, as they grow, and we require more and more from them as they learn to meet their own needs, and then they start going to school, and they have other responsibilities that is requiring effort and energy from them. We're able to make withdrawals from their emotional piggy bank.

Host: Nicole, does everyone have an emotional piggy bank?

Nicole Hogan: Yes, everyone does have an emotional piggy bank. So if you, again, envision a piggy bank, like you would have in your room, like Allie was just mentioning, and you look at that piggy bank, you can either fill it up to the very top or it can be empty. But everyone's emotional piggy bank is going to look different.

And so, we are each going to have a different emotional piggy bank account for each significant relationship that we have in our life. And so, for example, the relationship that a child has with their mother is going to be different than the relationship that they have with their father is going to be different than the relationship they have with their teacher. It's going to be different than the relationship that they have with their coach. Each person in a child's life is going to have a different emotional piggy bank. And each person, adult or child are going to have emotional piggy banks, and they're just going to look a little different.

Host: And I'd like you both to weigh in on this one. Let's start with you, Nicole. What are some misconceptions that people might have about children's behavior and how it relates to their emotional piggy bank?

Nicole Hogan: So, I have a couple common misconceptions that I think that people think about when they think about children's behavior and that emotional piggy bank. And I think one of those misconceptions is that people often feel that one single positive interaction can fully replenish a child's emotional reserve in that piggy bank. And so, when in reality, that's not true. It really takes consistent positive interactions and deposits over time to build a strong emotional foundation. And so even small negative interactions can quickly deplete that piggy bank.

And then, one of the other common misconceptions I think is that, when we give children what they want, and they get that all the time, then I think people think that that's considered deposit. "Oh, I'm giving them what they want, so I'm giving them a deposit." Yes, depending on the situation, that could be true. But the problem is if we're constantly doing that and doing that on a consistent basis, then that can actually lead to overindulgence, and we don't end up teaching kids and children the necessary tools and coping strategies that they need to deal with in life.

Host: Makes sense. Allie, would you like to add anything to that?

Allie EuDaly: Yes, I wanted to expand a little bit on that thought because I think along with that, the misconception that I hear from people is that they hear about this idea that we want to have these positive interactions with our kids, we want to say yes to our kids. And some people, like Nicole was saying, want to just say yes to everything, to their kids, all the time, and that is not meeting the structured needs of the child, as Nicole was mentioning, and it's actually permissive parenting.

And so then, I think on the other side of this is that some parents will hear that, and they know that permissive parenting is not helpful for kids who need structure and boundaries and to learn those skills for life, but then they don't believe in the concept of the emotional piggy bank at all, because they feel like they need a more authoritarian approach to discipline and that it seems like it would be soft or too gentle or permissive to meet kids' emotional needs in a moment when they might be struggling. And that it can look like a parent is giving into or coddling a child who might be struggling emotionally when the aim of that parent might actually be to meet the emotional needs of that child.

And so, children need the nurture and they need the structure and boundaries. They need this nurturing to fill their emotional piggy bank, to build self-esteem and confidence and healthy relationship skills as they grow. And they need the structure and boundaries. It is not kind or helpful to leave a toddler in the kitchen with a knife block unattended, right? Like we have to set boundaries to keep them safe, to teach them necessary life skills at the age-appropriate level that they're ready for. And so when people think, "Oh, we just need to say yes all the time to anything that they want, they are missing the structure needs of their children. And when people take a more authoritarian stance and say, "No, I need to be really strict and have really strict discipline, and I'm not going to take the time and the patience to understand the emotional needs of my child," they're missing out on the nurture needs of our children.

Host: Got it. Nicole, what are some ways parents can make deposits into their child's emotional bank? I know you have mentioned some, but just maybe a few more ideas.

Nicole Hogan: Something as simple as laughing with your child. You know, that can be huge far as making deposits into that emotional piggy bank, telling them they did a great job, you're proud of them, understanding them, making them feel understood, listening to them, saying kind words to them, empathizing with them, keeping commitment.

So, after dinner, yes, you can play with your toy for 15 minutes until it's time to get ready for bed. And then, following through with that. When you're making promises and those things to your children, making sure that you're backing those up. Clarifying expectations, I know that seems kind of a weird thing, but we're not mind readers, right? So, being able to have consistently, the same expectations can help build those deposits for our children. So that way, there isn't ambiguity and they know what's expected of them. Again, whether it's at school, at home, out on the field or out at practice, attending to the little things, recognizing the small things, helping them if they ask for help. All of those things are going to build trust, are going to build that relationship and make it stronger to where you're making those consistent deposits. So that way, when there is a moment that they are called upon to make a withdrawal, they have that reserve in there to be able to draw from.

Host: And Allie, what are some things that may subtract from a child's emotional piggy bank?

Allie EuDaly: I think that there are probably some obvious ones, like yelling at your child, speaking to them in anger, saying things that are not true, really any form of harsh punishment. And there's more than just some of those outward withdrawals though. And some of those are things that we don't think about as often, which would kind of be the flip side of the things that Nicole was saying. So, not validating your child's feelings, or minimizing your child's feelings, or telling them why they shouldn't feel the way that they do, even when it's coming from a place of really trying to be helpful, trying to help them consider the other person's point of view or give them some perspective taking, at the time that that's developmentally appropriate for them, absolutely, we want to teach them those skills. But we still want to meet them where they're at and validate the feelings that are coming up for them and help them learn how to experience those emotions in their bodies, and that's how they really feel heard and seen. So, not doing that or connecting with them when they're experiencing something that's hard can absolutely subtract from their emotional piggy bank.

Another thing would be divided attention. Our kids notice when they are asking us to watch them do something and they're proud of themselves, and they want us to be proud of them too. And they're saying, "Mom, watch this, watch this," or "Look at this that I did at school," and we're on our phones or we're talking with our partner about the plans for the evening. And I know that that can be so easy. We've all been there. It can be so easy to do. So, taking a moment to be so mindful to at least give our children a few minutes, as many minutes as we logistically can throughout the day of our undivided attention, where we can attune to where they're at, whether they're excited about something or whether they're frustrated or upset about something. Whatever it is, giving them our undivided attention to be able to attune to that and respond appropriately is going to be so helpful. And when we're not doing that, they know when our attention is divided and when we're not fully present with them and that can subtract from their emotional piggy bank as well.

Host: And it never ends. I have a 21-year-old, and same thing. I have to think in my head, "Put the phone down and just listen and don't do anything else," even though I don't think it ever ends, even though he's 21, but they notice for sure. And then, the tables get turned and you're on your phone when they're away at school or something, and you know, they're on their computer doing something else when they're talking like, "Okay. Well, karma, payback."

Allie EuDaly: We're the ones modeling that, right? Like, we get so frustrated when they're teenagers and adults and we're like, "Get off your phone!" But if we were the ones that modeled that for them, then that's what they've learned.

Host: Nicole, can you give us a real life example of a deposit and of a withdrawal?

Nicole Hogan: So, I think a deposit could be building off of what Allie just mentioned of that undivided attention, right? So, research talks about like the first three minutes in the morning when your kids wake up the first three minutes before bed, are such critical moments. And so, when they wake up, just giving them your time, your quality intention of, "How did you sleep?" You're invested in them, right? You're showing them right off the bat when they wake up that you care about how their night was, that you care about them, that you're interested in how this day is going to go, when they get in the car and they hop in the car after the car line, you know, and you pick them up from school, "How was your day?" Just showing them that you care about them, that you care about what they're doing, what they've been doing throughout their day. Role modeling is so critical. And the more that we can do that as parents is huge. There's so many more distractions these days that we as adults that kids are having to deal with at school and outside of school. And so, the more that we can try to role model like when are appropriate times to have a focus on something I think is really important.

An example of a withdrawal would be nagging, A child gets home from school, "Put your bag away," "Put your shoes up," "Go up," "Let's clean your room," "Let's sit down," and just X, Y, Z, this regimented structure. Structure and routine are very important. We talked about this balance of life and there's no parent handbook as we all have heard. But I think being able to find that balance of, okay, just realizing that if I'm giving 10 demands to my children or 10 statements of put your shoes away, put your bag away, and it's going on. If they don't have enough reserve in that piggy bank to be able to pull from, then eventually that's going to lead to probably a behavior of some sort, because behavior is a form of communication. And so, if they don't have that reserve, then they're depleted, just as we would as adults.

And so, I think just keeping in mind, again, context of situations, does your child have enough reserve that you can give those demands at that time? Or could it be handled a different way? Could it be worded a different way to where it doesn't seem as a "nag", but more of a, "I'm trying to help you. Let's get these things done. Because I know you're tired. I know you've had a long day, but we have to do this. But those would be two examples I have. I don't know, Allie, do you have anything else you think of?

Allie EuDaly: I wanted to share one more example of a deposit. I think it is so important to practice apologizing to our kids. So, the goal is not to become a perfect parent. None of us can achieve that. None of us are going to be perfect. And we all have our own stuff going on in our own lives. Also, as Nicole mentioned at the beginning, we each have our own emotional piggy banks as well. And sometimes by the end of the day, we feel completely depleted. And so, being able to connect with our kids, even in sharing with them how depleted we might be on a certain day and to say, "I am so sorry. I'm really struggling today with patients," or "I'm so sorry that I was nagging you when you got home first from school," or "I said something that was harsh. And I want to try that again because I don't like the way that I handled that interaction." It's, again, that modeling piece of how we want our children to learn conflict resolution, but also build so much trust with our kids and actually does put deposits in the bank because it's not just bringing up these uncomfortable conversations that can sometimes feel stressful to parents. And so, not everyone might see that as an emotional deposit, but it really is when you're connecting on that deep emotional level and genuinely apologizing to your child and then teaching them that as a life skill as well.

Host: Thank you so much, Allie and Nicole. this has been eyeopening and so informative. It's really good information to know and so helpful. Thank you so much for being here today.

Allie EuDaly: Thank you for having us.

Nicole Hogan: Thank you.

Host: Again, that's Ali EuDaly and Nicole Hogan. To learn more, please visit childrensmercy.org/parentish. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out our entire podcast library for topics of interest to you. Thanks for listening. I'm Maggie McKay, and that concludes this episode of The Parent-ish podcast. For more parenting tips and tricks, visit us at parentish.org where we help you celebrate the craziness and challenges of parenthood.