Maggie McKay (Host): It's too bad there's not a handbook for how to stand your ground as a parent, but luckily, there are experts on the topic from Children's Mercy to help us navigate through such issues.

Welcome to the Parent-ish Podcast, where experts at Children's Mercy Kansas City talk about the little everyday things parents experience with their babies, teens, and in betweens. I'm your host, Maggie McKay. We are so lucky today to have three guests with us, Dr. Ram Chettiar, Dr. Meredith Dreyer Gillette, and Dr. Jami Gross-Toalson. Would you please introduce yourselves? Let's start with you, Dr. Chettiar.

Ram Chettiar, DO: Hi. Yes, thanks for having me. I'm Dr. Ram Chettiar. I'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist at Children's Mercy.

Host: And Dr. Dreyer Gillette?

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: Hi, Dr. Meredith Dreyer Gillette, Pediatric Psychologist and Professor of Pediatrics at UMKC School of Medicine.

Host: And Dr. Gross-Toalson?

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: Hi, I'm Dr. Gross Toalson, a pediatric psychologist at Children's Mercy and the Director of the Thrive Program.

Host: Thank you all so much. Dr. Chettiar, let's start with you. Can you provide some examples of times you've had to maintain parenting boundaries in the face of external pressures like family, other parents, et cetera?

Ram Chettiar, DO: Yeah. There's a lot of pressures out there, and they come from all sorts of places. I think one place that our minds automatically go to these days are cell phones, when a child should get a cell phone? My kids are a little bit younger, so we deal a little bit more with the bedtime battle. So, I would say with the bedtime, I think my kids, at least from what they tell me, they're going to bed much earlier than every other child in their school or any child that ever has in humanity. And we kind of talk about it, and it's like It's a fun conversation in a way because you get to hear their perspective, and why they should have a later bedtime.

One of the things just from a physician lens is I make sure that I try to educate my kids as to why we have the bedtimes that we do. If we just tell them what to do and they do it, it works out sometimes, but it doesn't tend to work out in the long term. So, helping a child understand what's the purpose of what we're trying to do. My goal as a parent is not to make my child happy, but it is to teach them how to think, not what to think. So, if I can do that, I think I'm fulfilling my role of helping them feel safe and secure, helping them understand why we're making the decisions that we do. And letting them be a part of that conversation. I think that's very important as well.

Host: I love that. Teach them how to think, not what to think. That's perfect. Dr. Gross-Toalson, how do parental instincts and your expertise as a developmental and behavioral health professional play into situations of societal or peer pressure?

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: Well, I always appreciate the times when my instincts and what I know as a psychologist actually coincide. And unfortunately, that's not always the case. So, it really comes down to a balance between what do I know as a professional, what have I seen and what have I learned over the course of my career, and what do I feel like is right for my particular child? So, I have two kids, they're both very different children with very different needs in some ways. And so, there's not always a hard and fast rule on how to parent each of them.

So, bedtime is a great example, like Dr. Chettiar mentioned, because my two kids need totally different levels amounts of sleep. And so, talking to them about what I know as a psychologist, but also trying to balance that with their needs as a child and what they need in terms of amount of sleep. And some autonomy and decision-making is really important.

One of the things that's been great is allowing my children to learn a little bit about how to consume knowledge and research and information in a really developmentally appropriate way. So, "Hey, this is what I know about sleep or screen time and what the psychologists and the experts say. Let's look at that information and compare it to what you know. And you tell me what you think." And so, finding that balance and being able to help my kids learn how to understand the information they're getting back from their world and then combining that with my own experience and knowledge has been really, really helpful.

Host: Does it drive your kids nuts when you do that?

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: It absolutely drives them nuts. And ironically, my kids also have the earliest bedtime of anyone in the country. So, I'm not really sure. We're going to have to get them and Dr. Chettiar's kids together to kind of hash that out at some point.

Host: Well, I only ask because my son, now he's 21, but when he was little, I was doing the news and, you know, he'd say things that I knew just weren't right. So, I said, "Well, let's fact check that." And we'd look it up. It would drive him nuts. And guess who's doing it to me now? The tables have turned. I'll send him something at school," and he's like, "Well, let's fact check that." So, it will come back, but yeah, he learned how to do it, I guess. That's the best part about it. Dr. Chettiar, what role does setting consistent rules play in child development? How can it reinforce parental authority?

Ram Chettiar, DO: Setting consistent rules is important, and I think consistency is the key there. So when you have consistency, you also have security. It's important that a child understands that they are safe and, with consistent rules, you can really reinforce that. It's also important for a child to feel heard, valued. And along with this, they feel like capable individuals. So without rules or boundaries, we find that kids often lose that sense of security. They maybe feel a little detached from what's expected of them. It's hard to really get kids moving. So, it's also important for kids and adults to recognize that the adults in their lives love them very much. They want the best for them. We're not setting rules to make their lives miserable as much as they might argue that you are. And our goal is also not to make sure that they have the same rules as all of their friends. As Dr. Gross-Toalson mentioned, it's just important to realize every child is different and we want to recognize them for those unique qualities.

And then, as far as reinforcing parental authority, I don't think parental authority is necessarily a goal that we're going for, but rather just having your children understand that you're a trusted adult that they can always go to no matter what, when they make a mistake, when they're in trouble, when they need help. I think that's sort of such an important role for a child, and that really starts from consistent rules.

Host: Dr. Dreyer Gillette, I remember when our son was younger and I have to say, I learned the best lessons from my friends who had kids prior to that. You know, they were in the same class, but they had kids ahead of me and they learned and they really opened my eyes to how parents can strike a balance between standing their ground and being adaptable to changing circumstances. So, what do you say about that?

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: I think that's really critical, both being able to have those rules and be able to know and have your kids be able to understand that, you know, we have rules in place and the reason, the rationale behind those rules, but recognizing that there may be times when we have to modify those based on a changing circumstances. And Dr. Gross-Toalson and I both have some tweens and teens, and there's a lot of change that happens during those periods of time. And we have had a lot of things going on in our society too that requires being adaptable.

But like you said, you know, having a parent support group is so critical for you being able to kind of fact check with them. The 8:00 bedtime, has it killed any children recently? Because you hear that and you need that parent support. You need your parent support group that allows you fact check your own rules so that you can adapt based on new information and feel confident in those parenting decisions that you're making.

Host: Also Dr. Dreyer Gillette, how can parents effectively communicate the importance of their established rules to their children in an age-appropriate manner?

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: Yes. So, one of the rules of thumb that we have is when you're trying to communicate rules to children, that your sentences should be about as long number of words as their age is. So, if you have a four or five-year-old, your sentences should be four and five words long.

Most of us, especially those of us who might come from the behavioral health world, we love to talk. We love really long sentences. But when the emotions are high, we tend to over talk. So certainly explaining in short things the rationale is going to be important. This one's for your safety. My kids will tell you that, you know, they have to try new foods 10 or 15 times because that's mom's rule. She believes in healthy eating. But kids do like to have you do as I say and as I do, not do what I say because I do it. So, I think leading by example is going to be another way because kids are very focused on issues of fairness. So, that's going to be another important piece to manage as well.

Host: Good points. Dr. Gross-Toalson, what advice do you have for parents on handling criticism from relatives, friends, or acquaintances regarding their parenting choices? Because that's a tough one. That's a slippery slope.

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: It really is, and it's easy for us to kind of get defensive early on when someone questions, even if they're not criticizing, but simply questioning some of our parenting choices. And that's because parenting matters to us. We all want to do our best, and honestly, we're all sometimes insecure about how we're doing. So our, guard is going to go up pretty quickly when people question us or when we realize that we're doing things differently than others may be.

So, I think one of the issues that comes up is when grandparents question us, right? We may do things differently than our parents did and when we do things differently, it automatically makes them feel like we didn't think they did a very good job with us. And sometimes that might be a little bit true, but the truth is they did the best they could during the time and with the knowledge that they had, and that's what we're all doing. We're doing the best we can with what we know in the moment. And what I know is probably different than what my parents knew or what my daughter's best friend's parent might know. We're all coming with our own lens.

And so, I think when we can look at it from that perspective and kind of take a step back, not get defensive, but just kind of hear what they're saying and then be able to stand our ground and saying, "I understand that that's what you think, or I respect the fact that that's your idea. Here's where I'm coming from. And this is why I've made this decision. And this is why we've made this choice as a family." So, taking that step back and being able to kind of hear where that question's coming from, rather than fighting back, can really help. Respect begets respect, right? And it's a really great thing to model for our kids, too, that we can have different opinions from others, and that doesn't necessarily mean that we're being disrespectful or criticizing. But, in the end, it can be pretty tough.

Host: Yeah. And hopefully, it's coming from a good place.

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: Absolutely.

Host: Anything else you'd like to add in closing? How about you, Dr. Chettiar?

Ram Chettiar, DO: I might just mention that as we talk about all these things, we're going to get advice from all over the place. I really do think it comes from a good place most of the time. It's really important that parents take really good care of themselves. Parenting is hard. People have struggled through it for a long time. And I don't think we often, kind of, when we're in the depths of it, realize what impact that you have on your children. Being a good role model for them is so critical, they're going to remember it. And just savor those moments with your kids, even when times are hard, because life goes fast. So, taking good care of yourselves is really important.

Host: So, so true. And then, they grow up so fast and then you look back and think, "Oh, I wish they were little again."

Ram Chettiar, DO: That's right.

Host: Dr. Dreyer Gillette, would you like to add anything in closing?

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: Like Dr. Chettiar said, we are going to make mistakes as parents. That's part of the game. But being present, doing the best that we can and finding that group of parents that you have that you can bounce ideas off, finding parents who have some similar values. You know, you are the expert on your child their needs, but it sure does help to have a little validation from another parent to be like, "Hey, there's solidarity here. We're in this together." So when you feel like you're the worst parent in the world, you've got a second worst parent right there next to you to stand alongside you. But just remember that we're all going to make mistakes, but we are in this together.

Host: That's so true. And I always thought it was invaluable to be very close friends with the parents of the children who are best friends with your children.

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: Yes.

Host: I think that is crucial at least. That's my one parenting tip. Not that I know anything compared to you guys. Well, thank you so much for joining us, all three of you. We really appreciate your time and sharing your expertise.

Ram Chettiar, DO: Thanks.

Meredith Dreyer, PhD: Thank you.

Jami Gross Toalson, PhD: Thank you.

Host: Again, that's Dr. Meredith Dreyer Gillette and Dr. Jami Gross-Toalson and Dr. Ram Chettiar. If you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels and check out our entire podcast library for topics of interest to you. I'm Maggie McKay. That concludes this episode of the Parent-ish Podcast. For more parenting tips and tricks, visit us at parent-ish.org, where we help you celebrate the craziness and challenges of parenthood.