Michelle Moyal, DVM (Host): Welcome to the Cornell Veterinary Podcast, where we dive deep into the discovery, care, and learning that happens at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. I'm Dr. Michelle Moyal, a General Practitioner at the college and lover of learning and cats, which I will bring up later today. Cats, big or small, doesn't matter.

Our guest today is Dr. Martin Gilbert. He is a Wildlife Veterinarian and Epidemiologist, and is the Wild Carnivore Health Specialist, yes, at Cornell K. Lisa Yang Center for Wildlife Health. He leads and develops projects that study how disease affects endangered animals, and how we can use science to develop practical ways to help both wild animals and people. Welcome, Dr. Gilbert. I am very excited to have you here today.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I'm very excited to be here, Michelle. Thank you.

Host: Absolutely. So we're going to get to a couple of things cause I have a list of questions for you because I'm very excited that you're here. We have a lot of students and I'm sure we have a lot of young people, very eager to hear about wildlife health and endangered animals because that's certainly a big topic.

I wanted to bring up the fact, so you're a Professor at the College and you have a more unique title, I think, when people think about college or medical schools, they just hear the word professor and they think that that's the usual go to, but you are a Professor of Practice. And I want to highlight this for our listeners because a Professor of Practice is really interesting to me, and I'm one, I'm an Assistant Clinical Professor, but and again, each one carries their own kind of unique verbiage.

But a Professor of Practice has the expertise to provide instruction, not only through academic scholarship, but through practical experience. And I wanted to highlight those words because I have in fact, been stalking your resume. And it certainly seems like you have a lot of practical experience. So I wanted to highlight that for our listeners. So they knew who we were talking to.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Excellent. Thank you.

Host: Wonderful. Okay. So let's, we're just going to dive right in. Did you know that you wanted to do what you do now when you were a child?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Pretty much. I mean, I've always been interested in wildlife. Well, since my infant days, guess at first school I was sort of exposed to wildlife by a teacher who told us to go home at the weekend and go and look at birds in our hometown, come back on Monday morning with a drawing of a bird that we'd seen and a sentence or two about it.

The only two kids in the class that did it, being the studious kids as we were, were me and my friend. After berating the rest of the class, she took us to one side and encouraged us to kind of continue doing it. I did that, and that, I still have somewhere dug away a, a sheaf of over a hundred pieces of paper with drawings of birds that I saw and uh, little comments and stories about them of things that I saw.

So that really set me on the path that I'm still on, decades later, more decades later.

Host: My, mouth is just hanging open and so one, I love that story for so many reasons because you were inspired as a child, but two, because you were inspired by a teacher and an assignment. And I love it. A lot of us in this field tend to be inspired by assignments. And so, I love that you took that to heart and it inspired you lifelong. That's incredible. And so, you know, I'm not too new to this game, but I'm hearing a little bit of an accent and I did read your CV, so would you like to share a little bit about where you're from?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Originally I'm Scottish brought up in the Lake District in the north of England. So, uh. So yeah, and a, rural kind of environment. So I was very fortunate in being surrounded by lakes and woods and marshes and places to get wet and cold and watch wildlife.

Host: Yeah. Oh, all things, well, the wildlife aside cold and wet is not on my high list of things to do. But, I understand that people enjoy that. That's great. And so, let's jump right in. I love that background. I could see where a lot of inspiration kind of came for where you were raised. It sounds kind of magical, honestly.

You have this seriously cool job right now, to be quite honest. So how did you get into this line of work? It's not like we decide to be a veterinarian and epidemiologist. We just happen to fall into helping endangered species. So how did you get to where you are today?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I was interested since a young age, in birds particularly, birds were really the start, being that, birds are always around you, there's always something to see anywhere that you are. I mean, I'm sitting here in my office, gazing out the window, and as birds are passing by, you can't help but look at them.

But I, the other thing, from my sort of childhood was I was born into a veterinary family, both of my parents are vets. So, veterinary medicine was really in my well, I suppose in my DNA in a way. And so it was fairly inevitable that that was the direction that I took.

But I guess growing up in a veterinary practice, although, you know, it was a great place to get experience with animals and understand more of the sort of the mechanics of how the veterinary business works; wildlife was always a thing. Wildlife came first. And so even going into veterinary college, I always had an eye on sort of a future with wildlife.

I went to study veterinary medicine at the University of Glasgow. I stepped out for two years from the veterinary degree to study for bachelor's in zoology. In the UK, we're able to start veterinary medicine straight out of school. So the second degree in zoology was very much to satisfy my own passions. It wasn't a prerequisite before the veterinary degree.

I also tried to make the most of all of the opportunities that I had through, through university to travel, to visit other parts of the world, to, or to, volunteer with projects or get jobs sometimes with projects either within my own country or, or internationally, that were conservation focused. So I spent time working with seabirds in Scotland. I went overseas to Mauritius to work on a project over there as a student and really tried to feel, feel my way through the sort of the field more broadly because even early on, even as a student, it was clear that if you're going to get one of those jobs, they always tell you that wildlife veterinary jobs; there are no jobs in, in wildlife veterinary medicine.

Host: Even I've heard that, and I'm not in that, I'm not in that field, right? They're like, you know, just step off and go, I'm going to apply for a wildlife job.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Exactly, so you hear that a lot. And so really from the get go, I was interested in connecting with other people who are either doing that directly or who are hiring people to do that, to start to network and get a sense of what the environment is like, see what sort of opportunities that we could create.

And then whenever one of those opportunities comes up, even if it's not at the best time or it's, you know, in terms of your personal situation or your financial situation, as far as possible, try to take those opportunities whenever they come along, so.

Host: Yeah, that's really neat to mention. I want to make sure, I'm hoping we have some young listeners and I think it's very easy for us to say well, I looked for a job and I didn't find one, but to kind of create these opportunities, right? Because veterinary medicine, like the world of veterinary medicine and wildlife, I'm sure is the same and you know as a veterinarian and a scientist; that the world is actually quite small when it comes to the people we interact with in this profession. And so those networking opportunities are really important.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. And I think, thinking back, all of the positions that have opened up for me career wise, following my qualification as a, a young vet, all of those opportunities that opened up came from people that you talk to, personal relationships, they almost grew organically.

The relationship comes first. You figure out a good idea, you work out how to fund it. And, that's the way around that things have gone in, at least in my career. And I don't think I, I've only once applied for a job and I didn't get it. I think it's worked well for me otherwise.

Host: And here you are at this humongous institution and on this podcast, might I add listeners, but after not getting a job that maybe you wanted at the time. So again, we, we forge forward. I love that.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you've got to make your own opportunities and you've got to take them when they open up.

Host: Yes, definitely. And so, okay, that's super neat. You took these steps and I love that you were like, I'm just going to pursue this additional degree because that's what we like to do. And that's such a doctor thing, like such a, we love that. We're like, let's do more. I think we should put more on our plate.

That's very much what our people in this field do. And so, what brought you to Ithaca? Like, what brought you to Cornell?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Well, came a lot later. I mean, I was working for a long time in the NGO sector for an organization, the Wildlife Conservation Society, but based out of the Bronx Zoo. This is one of the pitfalls of life and well, both academia and the NGO sector is.

Host: We love acronyms.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: We love our acronyms. So yes, I do apologize. So, I worked there through from, what 2004, based in positions over in Asia primarily supporting, the Wildlife Conservation Society is one of the big conservation NGOs globally up there with WWF, the Nature Conservancy, and the like.

And so they, they're present in 60 countries around the world. They have in-country presence, national programs, helping and partnering really with those countries to set up systems for conservation of wild species, wild places. And in a lot of those situations, there are veterinary needs.

And so my initial job was to support veterinary projects in Cambodia was, where I first started, but then over time, expanding out to other Asian countries throughout Southeast Asia, Central Asia. And after 13 years there, I stepped aside to work on my master's and PhD. And then when, when I came back

Host: More learning. You heard it here, folks. More learning.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: One of my colleagues from WCS days had been offered a position here at Cornell and he offered me a position here to continue and expand doing what I'd been doing in Asia. And so I was only willing to take him up on his offer. And I've been here ever since that was, what, 2016.

Host: Wow. That's awesome. That is, wow. And I think, again, it's kind of similar. I, joined the academic setting after 14 years in practice as well. So now we know why you're a Professor of Practice. Cause that doesn't come with like you have like a lot of experience, right to pass on.

And gosh, you have studied a lot of animals in exotic locations. Like you're talking a lot about Asia. Can you give us kind of a highlight reel of some of the projects you've worked on, before Cornell, during your time here and places you've been involved in, in the past, like, give us, give us the cool, the cool lowdown, but you can, you can mention, there was a time when I was like slogging through the mud to follow a certain animal and it was not enjoyable, but at the same time I'm helping this animal. You could, anything can be on this highlight reel.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. I mean, when, when I first was looking for positions, I, this was back in the days, just as, email was, coming in. Most of it was letter writing, sending off letters to names that I'd collected as a student around the

Host: world.

Yes kids, you heard that kids, snail mail. We used to write letters on paper and send them to other people. Yes, I recall those days as well.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. No, and, and it was certainly snail. So I sent out dozens and dozens of letters around the world to various names and ah and people. And a fraction of them probably reached their target and a fraction of those were responded often to say that they had nothing available for me. But a group called the Peregrine Fund based out of Boise, Idaho actually with a history at Cornell, they, they originally grew out of the uh, lab of ornithology. So they, they were Tom Cade set it up was actually a, a Cornell man to start with. So in some ways it's, it almost feels like coming full, full circle.

Host: Yeah. Shout out to the Lab of Ornithology. They're amazing. They also have some great apps.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. I've used them today.

Host: Yes. Oh, I love it. Check those out, everyone. Okay.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So, so they offered me a position in Madagascar. So my first position was over in Madagascar working with the rarest fish eagle species in the world. I also spent time up in the forests in the northeast, working with a number of forest species. Again, based on the sort of contacts that you make in these jobs or in these positions. After that, I spent some time in South Africa, offered through a person with BirdLife International that I'd met in the field In Madagascar, that was working with, with penguins on a, on an oil spill.

Host: Wow.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I met my wife there or my future wife there. Bonus indeed, I then

Host: That's amazing.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: moved over. I spent a little bit of time in Australia, working with endangered marsupials before the Peregrine Fund came back to me to ask if I might be available to go up to Pakistan and assist with what at the time was one of the big conservation issues globally, really, but certainly in Asia was the die off of vultures in India and, and Pakistan and Nepal.

So they were looking for a vet to help with this sort of catastrophic die off. And so I took a position there. Through my position with the Peregrine Fund, I also spent time in Greenland catching falcons, Papua New Guinea studying very poorly known forest eagle species. Then as I say, I, I moved on to the Wildlife Conservation Society in Cambodia and working more widely in, in Asia, focused on a whole range of different jobs, everything from what, dolphins and turtles to highly pathogenic influenza, bird flu up in Mongolia in particular.

Host: Wow.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Then I switched to the Russian Far East and Tigers. I worked over in Russia. That became my master's and my PhD, so did my graduate studies over there, which then moved on to Cornell and Tigers elsewhere in their range. Snow leopards in Central Asia and rhinos that I hinted on there in Nepal, which is a species that I'm working on at the moment.

Host: That's quite a highlight reel. I'm giggling because like my highlight reel is the fact that I got up today and I managed to shower and I did go to the gym and I feel very successful. But that's a different kind of success. And so the reason why I love that so much is because the breadth of your knowledge is

quite amazing. And what I wanted to make sure, and, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you love birds, you worked with birds initially, and maybe when you moved on to the rhinoceros or tiger, maybe you didn't know everything about them, but that's kind of the beauty about being a veterinarian and a doctor and is like learning more about them. Yes, because I don't want everybody to think that, you should know everything about everything right away.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: At college, I think, aside from the regular domestic animal species, when I was studying at college, I know it's changed a little bit today; we barely had a day on most of the sort of small furries, the rats, mice and guinea pigs and rabbits and all the rest of it. A day on birds. But then, going through to when my parents studied, they had a day on cats. So I guess it's all a part of the

Host: Yes, it really is. And now it's becoming a little bit more specific, but still, even then we, I find that the learning curve kind of remains, somewhat sloped, not necessarily steep, but somewhat sloped despite, however long you're in the profession.

And so, that's really great. I was just in Australia and I saw blue penguins coming out of the water, and it was the most amazing experience of my life, watching penguins move around.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I made a special, special effort to go and see the little blue penguins when I was over there.

Host: Yes!

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely.

Host: Thank you for speaking to that. That just reminded me of my trip, and that was wonderful. And so, now, for everybody listening, hopefully you noticed that I said I was a lover of cats big and small. And you mentioned that you worked with tigers and your work on tigers has made some headlines. Like, could you share with us, more about your work in tiger health and tiger conservation?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Sure. So my work with tigers was really focused on a particular disease, canine distemper virus.

Host: Yeah. Gotcha.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So I guess CDV, canine distemper a pathogen that, you know, we normally, I mean, it's in the name, we, we normally think about it as a pathogen of domestic dogs uh, it's common in dogs around particularly parts of the world where vaccination is not usually practiced.

Host: For those of you listening who are on the small animal side or want to be, it's actually one of the vaccines that we consider a core vaccine. We routinely give this to our dogs in the U.S. This is part of the reason, if they're not vaccinated, they could have some issues and then I lead into what you're saying, yes.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Sure. And thankfully, it's a virus that you know, here in the U.S. or qualified vets in the UK often haven't seen because of vaccines have been so good at controlling it. But in a lot of the rest of the world, it's a very common pathogen of domestic dogs. Causes respiratory disease, gastrointestinal disease, immunosuppression and then neurologic disease later on

Host: Yeah. Unfortunately I've seen it, that's why I could say that, sadly.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. It also affects wild carnivores. So it's quite common here in North America in sort of raccoons and foxes and species like that. But it wasn't seen in wild tigers until 2003. There was a first case in a wild tiger was out in the Russian Far East, was a, a young female tigress that walked into a village along the Chinese border.

And she was showing these neurological signs that you describe. She was taken into care. But unfortunately she died after a few weeks. Now this, as I say, that was back in 2003-4. And at the time, we were a little bit worried about this because we thought, is this the start of something new? But because tigers are so solitary, they have very little contact with other tigers, we thought the potential for transmission through the population was very low.

And so initially we set it to one side. We thought this is unlikely to be, you know, a conservation threat. But then in 2010, there were a series of cases, and not just a number more cases, but they were, spread quite widely through tiger range, so, separated by hundreds of miles between them. And so we thought maybe there's something bigger at work.

So my work was really to understand, firstly, would distemper, was it capable of being a population threat to tigers? In other words, is it, is it a threat to the conservation of the, the tiger population in Russia? If it was, how, how were tigers getting it? Where is it being maintained in the, in the environment?

What animals are acting as a source of infection? And also, is it something we should be worried about for management purposes? And if it is, could we manage it? So this, this work really became, the basis for my, well, initially my master's degree, then my PhD, focused on understanding this, this pathogen.

Now, I was, was fortunate in the sense that the Russians, over the years, the biologists working out there had been very diligent at collecting samples. So we had a, a library of samples that we could refer to, to look at how tigers have been exposed over time and how that had changed over time. But we also collected our own samples.

We went out into the forest sampled wild carnivores, badgers and raccoon dogs and species like that that are, that are out in the forest and also domestic dogs that are in the communities throughout the villages and settlements throughout tiger, tiger habitat. Now, our findings were actually unexpected. We thought going into this, that we were going to find the domestic dogs were probably the most, I mean, it's in the name, canine distemper virus, that they were the most likely host that tigers would be picking the virus up from. But it turned out that wasn't what was happening.

Host: Oh!

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: The tigers were actually getting it from the local wildlife, so the, the sort of common species in the forest that particularly martin species, which are very common and we found if anything, they were the source of infection, not just for the tigers, but also for the, the local domestic dogs. Dogs that were taken to the forest were more likely to be exposed to the virus.

Host: Wow, and these types of studies obviously are, are quite important, right? Because then can we implement, like, there might be something you could do about it in this case, right? Can we implement a vaccination program? But you have to find the source.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Exactly. So initially thinking that had it proved to be domestic dogs, then that would have pointed us towards improving the vaccination coverage for domestic dogs in areas where tigers live to reduce the burden of infection in, well, in the tiger's landscape. But because it wasn't domestic dogs, that really influenced or pointed us towards the only other credible way of managing it, which is to vaccinate the tigers themselves.

Host: Wow.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So, we have been looking at ways that we could deliver vaccines to tigers, strategies for how we could do it so that we could make the population more resilient to future outbreaks. And so we've been looking at just vaccinating low numbers of tigers rather than the high herd immunity, the sort of coverage that we looked at trying to get in the population with COVID.

Host: Yeah, yeah, with a pandemic, right? The most we, so if we vaccinate everyone, we hope that kind of herd immunity helps those out who may not have good immunity or cannot get the vaccine?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. So, but here, we're never going to get rid of the virus. It's out there in the environment. We can't vaccinate all the badgers and foxes and sort of wild carnivore species. So our only way of doing it is to target the tigers themselves. And so, we're starting to look at ways that we could deliver vaccines to them potentially oral baits.

I mean, it's used with other pathogens in other species. So rabies particularly here in North America. So the, really this research was aimed at trying to understand enough about it, about the, the system to be able to inform management and work out how to resolve this problem.

Host: Yeah, so I find that really interesting and I think it ties back to what I've read when I stalked you online. And you said that the road to addressing issues quote, begins in the field. This is a really great example of that. Right? Trying to figure out what's going on with larger tiger populations, not only by kind of assessing the animals and then the dogs in the area and then figuring out the badgers. It's really incredible work.

You have another project. Because, you know, you only do a couple. You have another project that involves the conservation of endangered dholes. Now, I'm going to admit something here, and even as a veterinarian, and I hope other veterinarians feel good, or maybe there are people out there that are like, I'm sorry, what did you just say?

And I said, dhole, and it's D H O L E. Yes, and could you tell everybody, what is a dhole? I googled already, but let's share, let's share with everybody else.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Well dohles are the coolest animal that no one has ever heard of.

Host: They're so cool. They're so cool.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So essentially a dhole also known as an Asiatic wild dog, these are the Asian equivalent to African wild dogs, or the painted dogs that maybe see on documentaries on the TV. They live in open Savannah landscapes. They are beautifully patterned with big ears.

Dholes are the Asian equivalent.

Host: Now I just met the dingo in Australia. Is that still an equivalent?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Dingoes are

Host: He says stretching, twitching.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I mean, dingoes are still cool. They're still dogs. They're still an important part of the Australian

Host: Gotcha.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: environment, but dholes are a whole other beast.

Host: Gotcha.

Okay. Dholes are where it's at, people. You heard it from Dr. Gilbert himself.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely, they should Google them.

Host: Yes.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: They are pack living, so they're a very social species. They're a sort of rich red brown color with a long kind of, almost flag like tail with a black tip that they use for communicating to each other. The other thing that they do is they communicate with vocalizations. So they, because unlike their African cousins, they are more forest associated, they live in thicker habitat. And so in order to coordinate between members of the pack, they're quite vocal. They whistle to each other.

Host: I know. I read that. I read that. And now I can't whistle at all. So if I was the dhole, or if I come back as a dhole, you're hearing me correctly. I don't think I could do well because I can't whistle.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Well, dholes are, dholes are certainly whistlers. I mean, we, I, literally, I've just come back from Thailand, where I was working with a Thai veterinarian on a, a dhole project that we're developing over there. And the first night in the field after dark you could hear the dholes whistling in the forest as they were, they were hunting.

Yeah, so they, they, they hunt cooperatively. Although they're not very big themselves, they work collectively to, to bring down large prey. They're very effective hunters of large deer, even wild cattle. So, they're quite a beast.

Host: Yeah. I heard they hunt as a pack, but they can cover like 34 square miles.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Oh, absolutely. So, when we were in Thailand, we were actually trying to capture them in one location. And

Host: How'd that go?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: It didn't go so well, we,

Host: Yeah. Hmm. Hmm.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: We're still, still waiting for our first, but we started the project, we'll get there.

Host: So what issues are dholes facing? So what is your place here? How are you trying to help them?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Well, dhole populations you know, at one time used to be quite widespread in Asia, all the way from the Russian Far East down to the southern tip of India and Southeast Asia, Indonesia. But their populations have declined greatly. They're now really occupying less than 20 percent of the land that they used to cover, primarily because of habitat destruction.

Lots of prey. As I say, they need large prey, which are, are often hunted out themselves. So even in areas where the dholes haven't been hunted, there's, there's not enough food for them. And also through persecution directly from, from people. But our focus is on another threat, and a threat that has not really been systematic, systematically studied, and that is health.

So, there's long been a suspicion, particularly because they're social carnivores, they share a lot of pathogens with other species like domestic dogs. So rabies virus, distemper virus, mange, parasitic disease, that spreads very quickly through their packs. And so potentially at least, could be a really important threat to their conservation, just as it is with other social canids like African wild dogs in Africa or Ethiopian wolves or similar species.

So we're really looking to, to understand the impact of these pathogens at a population level, how they are a little bit like the tigers, how they are circulating, where they get them from. And if they are an issue at a population level, how would we control them?

Host: Yeah, absolutely. So when we think about the dhole, right, you said they are, they are a pack animal, so if one animal in the pack gets, you were saying mange, like a very contagious skin disease and then goes back to the pack and is grooming or even just like sleeping next to another dhole or they have a respiratory disease, they're breathing, they're coughing, obviously it can affect the whole pack and it can decimate populations depending on what they get. Right?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and that's at least that's the theory, but so far, no one, no one has looked at dholes. So we, this would be the first project to really understand the health threats to their population. And as I say, how to, to address them.

Host: That's so neat. So now our listeners hopefully will be inspired, much like you were by your teacher telling you to go look at a bird outside. I will encourage our listeners not only to look out the window and look at a bird, but they're going to Google dhole and maybe one day they will be in a position where they're doing, subsequent projects to what you've started.

 Okay, you've mentioned all of these places, right? So Russia, and now in Thailand, and you're in all of these places in Asia, in Greenland, you know, I'm assuming you don't always have the facilities to do like high tech testing, right?

Like you're in the middle of the forest. I, don't know if you set up like a station or whatever. So, I've heard that your team have like pretty cool solutions to like figuring out how to do testing and analysis. And so could you tell us, and I love for people who don't know, there was an old show in like the 80s or 90s called MacGyver.

And I've brought MacGyver up before and MacGyver would figure things out and he would like, take care of a bomb with like a paperclip and a pen and I love that and so this sounds like a MacGyver moment so shout out to that old TV show but shout out to you and your team. So how does your team make solutions to doing the things you need to do when you're out in the field?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. MacGyver is a, is a nice analogy.

Host: Thank you that.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Yeah we're not, we're not defusing bombs, but, um, we're certainly trying to overcome logistical challenges. I mean, most of the species that we work with a lot of them live in sort of remote and hard to reach areas. And so, a lot of what we do is trying to figure out the most practical way to solve problems to, to work with these species in these places.

Also, we face issues with the movement of samples. So getting samples to laboratories to get them analyzed. And so a lot of these, in a lot of the countries that we're working in, there's not the laboratory facilities that we need to do the testing that we require. And so, but it can be very difficult to get the permits to sometimes even collect the samplesor if even if we have samples, to then move them to international laboratories to test. So we're always looking at ways that we can try and solve that problem. So, for instance in, in Kyrgyzstan, so a country in Central Asia where we're working with snow leopards and particularly snow leopard prey species and sort of mountain environments far away from well not just veterinary infrastructure, but sort of the electricity.

We're just using paper. We're using filter paper to soak up blood samples from wild sheep and goats that the snow leopards prey on, that we then dry and we can bring those back to, to laboratories. And because this is a, low tech method of collecting samples, it's perfect for field guys. So people with no veterinary background, just rangers, who you know, with a little training, are able to collect the samples and it extends our sort of reach out into very difficult to reach areas.

Host: Wow. So I'm picturing like a coffee filter, like kind of a porous kind of paper.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: They're more like strips, so it's like a strip of filter paper that we will soak up and they dry and they work, really well. We can bring them back to the lab and reconstitute them and you can then test with that blood sample. And so we're working to perfect some of the lab techniques so that we can adjust them to make a better use of samples like this.

Host: That's awesome. And I appreciate, to be quite honest, local guides and people that work in the area probably know these animals and their behaviors best, right? I mean, you do too, but they know a lot about the terrain, about the weather.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. They are the people that see these animals on a day to day basis. They're the eyes and ears that if there's a mortality in sort of a remote valley somewhere, they're the only people there. But even though they have that access, they are frustrated that they don't have the knowledge to know how to respond.

And so we're trying to give them the ability to connect with diagnostic services that can then identify the causes of mortality in these cases.

Host: Yeah. That's so neat. I always, I feel like I always have a moment during these podcasts where I talk about Cornell's motto of doing the greatest good, and I think that that's a really good example of like helping others to do the greatest good as well. That's incredible. And so, okay. Cause there are just many cool things.

And so, are there any other projects that have, like that you'd like to mention. Like, I mean, obviously the distemper one is huge. Working with dholes is huge. Like, is there anything you are like, you know, I want to talk about this project.

Give me my time, Dr. Moyal. Let's talk.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Okay, I guess one, a lot, most of what I do is carnivores, but another species, I mentioned it earlier that I have been increasingly looking at are rhinos. So we're working with rhinos particularly in Nepal, that have been, over the last decade, there's been a fairly steady increase in the mortality levels that we're seeing in a, park in Nepal called Chitwan National Park.

We've been working with the Department of National Parks and Wildlife Conservation there and the National Trust for Nature Conservation to try to figure out what is the cause or causes of these mortality issues? This is a project, again, going back to the sort of problem solving. We are faced with issues because in Nepal, there are, there's really not much expertise, certainly in wildlife pathology and not very many veterinary pathologists either. So having that local expertise to be able to diagnose these cases is really challenging on the one hand, but on the other, it's very difficult to get samples exported and get them to people with the expertise to look at them. So rather than moving the samples, we have been, we're looking at ways that we can process those samples in-country to prepare histopathological slides, that we're then able to scan and digitize with a microscope that we work with produced by a group out of Finland called Grundium, which is a really robust piece of kit that we can take to the field, we can digitize these samples and we can then email them out essentially to experts, rhino pathology experts anywhere in the world who can then look at these, these tissues and give us a diagnosis.

Host: That's incredible. So for people who are like our, our young people, I know you're out there listening that may not know about pathology. So essentially if an animal passes away in this park in Nepal; someone's going in and they're looking at this deceased animal and they're saying, okay, like, let's be thorough.

Let's try to figure out why this animal passed away. And that will involve taking samples of tissues or discharge or anything else. And then you'll put them on slides and send and digitize them. Thank you, Finland, for, others to look at here who are trained in pathology.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. Yes. Um, so basically it creates an access for vets in the be able to tap into that expertise that is out there globally, while still maintaining, doing all of the hands on work themselves, using the information that they would get back to and hopefully find ways that we can improve and manage the landscape differently or manage the park differently so that we could reduce avoidable mortalities in these rhinos.

Host: Absolutely. And so neat. I mean, globally, it's a network, right? So you could send it to someone, you know, in the U.S. or I find that really incredible. And so that's so neat to hear.

And so like, seeing that you've had all of these, I'm going to call them adventures because in my mind you are now Indiana Jones. And so I think, but for animals, are there any standout memories that you love? If someone's like, have a drink, and then you're like, yes, if I'm having, just kidding, you don't have to drink, it could be over a delicious snack, and you're like, I would like to share this story, this is my go to story, and your wife is like, don't tell that story again, but you're like, I'm gonna tell this story again because it's fabulous and this is a new group of people, like, what do you share with them?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: There's quite a few of those don't tell, my wife telling me don't tell that story again. But yeah I mean, I guess there's one in particular, but one that I wouldn't tell within the earshot of risk management here.

Host: Uh oh. Stoplit. Turn it off. Turn off the podcast. Risk management.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: In fairness, this happened before I was at Cornell, so they can relax. This, they can relax. This wasn't on their time.

Host: Great. That's all they needed to know.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I did very nearly get eaten by a tiger in the Russian Far East. That, I had a bit of an encounter, yes. It was while I was out in the forest with the distemper work. We were trapping wild carnivores.

And I was checking my traps early one morning to see if I'd caught anything overnight. And I was already on, on edge because we have little cameras, remote cameras that we can monitor our traps. And I checked one of these cameras and seen that we'd had a bear come in for the first time. I'd not had a bear coming into my traps at night before. And so I was on my own, a little bit on edge. I'm thinking, there's a bear in the forest, we've got to be a little bit careful. And as I, um,

Host: Agreed.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: As I'm approaching my last trap, I had to cross a river and so I gradually picked my way across the river and I was just coming up on the other side when across from the other side of the river where I'd just come from, the forest exploded with sound.

Um, a loud roaring. Sort of up on a hill over the river. And my first thought was bear. This is the bear I've been thinking about all morning. And it was clearly running fast, directly towards me, roaring the whole time. It didn't stop roaring the whole time. And I could see bushes moving. It was maybe 200 meters, 200 yards, something like that, away from me initially.

Host: It sounds like a great scene from Jurassic Park, by the way.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: It is very Jurassic Park. Very Jurassic Park. And then as it burst out of the little trees on the edge of the river, I could see it was a tiger. And I won't say what I said, but it was very brief and to the point.

Host: We would probably have to bleep that out, kids.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: You might have to.

Host: We won't have him. Yeah. Say that.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: And so, it's still roaring, soon as it hits the cobbles, the rocks by the river, my first instinct was it was going to stop. It's going to stop at the river, but it didn't even slow down. And she jumped the river. And as she jumped the river, I turned and looked for somewhere to hide, and there were some small trees nearby, and I went running for these trees, and for that split second as she jumped the river and I moved, she lost sight of me, and she came up on the bank and actually ran straight past me with her head swinging one way and another, looking where I was.

And she, she overshot, and then she sees me behind these trees. And I'm kind of, what, when I say I'm behind these trees, these trees are maybe three inches in diameter. They're not doing anything to hide me. pathetic.

Host: It's great. And now Jurassic Park has turned into a comedy. Yes. for us. For us listening,

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: And so she's standing there roaring at me and the only protection that I had we had flares so like the flares that you put down sort of on the roadside if you're you have a flat tire on the freeway or something. I had one of those and, but I'd never pulled it before. It had a string that you would use to set it off, and so I'm standing there holding it and I'm thinking, do I, pull it now or because of course I have no idea it's going to be effective to keep her away from me.

So I thought I'll, if she makes a move towards me, I'm pulling this and I'll try to scare her off with it. But that was the only thing I had. And after, as I say, she's continually roaring through this whole process. But after, I don't know how long, she kind of stopped. She turned her head, jumped down off her bank and went walking off into the forest and didn't even look back. She knew she'd done what she needed to do and I, I'd been firmly put in my place.

Host: Oh my gosh.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I just stood there quivering.

Host: I'm sure that must have felt like forever and very fast at the same time. You know those moments? Although I'm sure it really felt like forever. Like domestic cats can run, I think, up to 30 miles an hour. So I can only imagine what her running at a full tilt, like across a bank, how amazing that is.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. Yeah.

Host: Oh my gosh, that is a great party story. I would enjoy hearing that again with snacks. So, you know, it's definitely keep that in your pocket because I think that's pretty amazing. And so, what is something because I want to be mindful of our time because our time has been precious and amazing and enlightening. What is something that you really want people to know or understand about wildlife or nature in general. And if you want to send a message to the people that at Yellowstone go and try to touch bison, feel free. I can tell them, please stop doing that. And you could do a different message.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I guess we've talked a lot today about endangered species and rare populations and on extinctions and preventing extinctions, which, obviously is very important. But I think that can lead to a bit of complacency in a way. If we only focus on extinctions, these are really rare events.

You know, in the last 400 years, there's only been a hundred mammal species have disappeared from the planet, which, that's terrible, but there's a lot of other mammal species that are still here. Less than 200 bird species have disappeared since in a similar sort of time period.

And that doesn't really start to sort of hint at the impact that we're having in the, the natural world. So if anything, I think we forget about the common species and how much of an impact we're having on common wildlife. So, we have over 6,000 species of mammals on the planet.

But if we think in terms of biomass, only 4% of the mass of mammals on the planet, only 4% are wild mammals. We are 35% of, of mammals on the planet. Everything else are livestock and domestic animals. So same goes for birds. If you think of the mass of birds on the planet, 70% of the bird mass on the planet is chickens.

Host: Wow.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So when you think of all the 10,000 or so bird species, they're just a tiny fraction of all the birds on the planet. So I think it's important to think that conservation is not just those rare species and those endangered species and extinctions. It's also about the species that are around us all the time. They've all declined in our lifetimes.

Host: Yeah.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: So I, mean, I don't want to end with a doom and gloom story. You know, conservation is about opportunity, you know, it's glass half full. How can we work as individuals to make the world a better place? And there's lots of things that all of us can do.

I mean, thinking about how much of world is there as for agriculture. We cut down on our consumption of animal products or even cut it out, buy locally look for products that are particularly, wildlife friendly, like, shade coffee or things like that, that are

Host: Hmm.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Protect wild migratory bird species.

Host: These are not big things, right? These are small things. Like, if you eat a lot of meat, maybe you do a meatless Monday once in a while, right? Maybe you, maybe you're mindful where you get your coffee, where, these are not big things. Certainly worth the effort.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Yeah, so there's lots of small changes to our lives that we can make that collectively can start to make a big difference. So, also thinking about, I mean, we're, in an election year, thinking about where, if you're old enough to vote, where you put your tick in the box. Is that person, do they think about the environment? And also wildlife is there, for, to be enjoyed. So, take up an interest, buy a bird book, download the Merlin app from uh,

Host: The Merlin app is fantastic.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: the Lab of O. Learn about the birds that are around you.

Host: Yes.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Spread the word, you

Host: I bought binoculars just so I could look at the different species of birds I have around me.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. I mean, I'm, I'm, I bring, when I come to work here, I bring my laptop and I bring my binoculars. My binoculars

Host: I love that.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: On my desk. so,

Host: That's great.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I

Host: So small things, still, still all small things, right? So, you may not think you could have a big impact, but if you do, and this is not to get political, if you believe in something, then you look at a person and you say, listen, I want the environment to be safe. I want to think about animals.

I want to think about these practices that may be hurting animals. And so I will kind of voice my opinion in my vote. I will voice my opinion in where I spend my money. I will voice my opinion in using the app and in talking to people about conservation efforts and maintaining the species we have around us.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Absolutely. I mean, it's, spreading that word, inspiring others, particularly kids if you value wildlife, spread that message and it helps other people do the same and value promotes protection.

Host: Oh, I love that. Yes, and we start that here, too, right? We're talking about it, so I appreciate that. Birds use tools, people. Some birds use tools. I just can't get over that. That's amazing. I'm obsessed. But so, as we wrap up, because you're this seasoned traveler, and I might have mentioned telling your stories over drinks or snacks. I actually prefer the latter. I am a food person and I was just in Australia and actually just in Singapore and had some of the most delicious food ever. And so I'm going to ask you, we're just going to keep it light on this last one. So I would like to know your favorite food from Scotland and or England, since that's where you were, you spent some time. Talk to me about that.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I don't know about favorite food, but it does always strike me as amusing in that I'm vegan. Yeah, I work with carnivores as a carnivore conservationist, a carnivore veterinarian, biologist, the contrast with my eating habits often strikes people as quite amusing in the, the countries that I work in, so.

Host: I understand that. Even here, well, I'm a vegetarian, but even here sometimes it's interesting because my parents are not from the U.S. and out of necessity, there were animal products. Like food wasn't easy to get. So a lot of times it was out of necessity. So sometimes people are taken aback at the ability to have a choice in the matter, which I think is, we're quite lucky. And so, yeah, okay. So, but the, it still holds. Like, what's your favorite food from that area?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: What is my favorite food from home? I mean, I have to say, Scottish food is not known for its uh, for

Host: I'm already laughing. He hasn't finished the sentence. Okay.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I got a good vegan haggis would, will go down just fine.

Host: Wow. Oh, okay. Vegan haggis. Okay. What about in the US? Do you have a fave?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Oh, what, what do I have when I'm coming home. I mean every, everyone will say that when they're in the field, they're looking forward to getting home and ordering a pizza 'cause that's something that you're not going to get out in the, the wilds of wherever you are. And if you do, it's usually dreadful. I'm quite adaptable. I, can survive on whatever's available because usually as a vegan, I don't have the choice in a lot of places.

Host: Yeah, yeah, I'm hearing no commitment to these topics here. You're just like, I can get food wherever, and that's really, okay, I got it. Okay, so, you know what? Let me, lead with this very last question. When you're in the field, I'm sure it has to be quiet. When you're abroad and you are doing your thing and you can have music on what is playing?

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Ooh, what is playing music wise? I don't know. I'm, more of a sort of an alternative, independent

Host: Oh.

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: Indie guy. Yeah, it's

Host: Any group that comes to mind?

Oh,

Martin Gilbert, BVMS, PhD: I'd enjoy The National.

Host: Nice. Okay. Okay. He's committed to the music, everyone. He's committed to the music. Well, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me and Enlightening me about what you do and about the amazing projects you are involved with. And I hope our listeners were exposed enough to, one, want to Google dhole's because I think that's incredible.

Two, want to check out, by the way The Cornell K. Lisa Yang Center for Wildlife Health because it's an incredible resource online. They have a great Instagram. They have like all sorts of info on different things. So, if you're interested in veterinary medicine or you're not, and you just want to know about the things that, a veterinary school does like Cornell to help wildlife and to help conservation, then please check us out online and please continue to listen to the Cornell Veterinary Podcast so we can keep bringing amazing guests like Dr. Gilbert. Thank you so much for joining me today. Everybody keep listening, like, and rate, and I will talk to you all soon. Thanks.