Michelle Moyal, DVM (Host): Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Cornell Veterinary Podcast, where we deep dive into the discovery, care, and learning that happens at Cornell University's College of Veterinary Medicine. I'm your fabulous host, Dr. Michelle Moyal, visiting assistant clinical professor, and your favorite Purina veterinarian, by the way. And I'm very excited for our show today because my guest is Dr. Mandi de Mestre, the Dorothy Havemeyer McConville-- Whew! Okay, I'm going to keep going-- Professor in Equine Medicine and Director of the Baker Institute for Animal Health AND-- all capital Letters-- and the recently launched initiative, Cornell Equine, which is very exciting and we're going to talk about all of that. As a researcher, she studies the relationship between the embryo and maternal immunity in horses. Yes! Love horses! Welcome to the show, Dr. de Mestre.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here with you. I was listening to your podcast over the weekend and it was just fabulous. So, I was really excited to join you.

Host: I really, really appreciate that. We didn't even pay her, folks. She actually just volunteered that information, and I'm really happy about that. Awesome. And we're going to jump right in, because it's like a beautiful sunny day in Ithaca, and we don't get those often. So, this doctor clearly needs to get done with this podcast and then maybe step outside because it's lovely. I try to jump in with something that I think is super important, and that's basically people's journeys. Did you always know that you wanted to be a veterinary scientist, like a clinical scientist? And if the answer to that is no, which I don't know if everybody wakes up going, "Aha" at like five, "I will be a veterinary researcher." What was your path here?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. I was thinking that as I was coming on. Essentially, I think I wanted to be a veterinarian early on, but the scientist came later for sure. I grew up in Australia, you can probably hear from the accent, and on a sort of small to medium-sized farm, sheep, cattle, and horses.

Host: Wow!

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: And I think the first time I really thought of being a vet was when I was about 12, and my father had just brought all these heifers in to the farm. And clearly, we soon discovered that at the previous property, the bull had jumped the fence and a lot of them were pregnant. And they shouldn't have been. They were probably just a touch on the young side for that. So, we had our vet out regularly as we dealt with the consequences of that. And I still remember him doing lots of C-sections, cesarean sections, and I was there like the member of the family going, "This is fascinating." So, that was my first sort of dive into Obstetrics. And I think I've been fascinated sort of ever since.

But probably, the scientist, I went into vet school, then took a gap year off first. I don't know if you'd get those in America. In England and Australia, it's a common term, a gap year.

Host: Yeah, we use it. Not everyone does it. I took a few gap years, and I'm thrilled with my decision to take them. So, I understand. For anybody listening, a gap year means essentially she took a break in between maybe undergraduate studies before she went into medical school studies.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. So, I did that between my high school studies and my veterinary studies.

Host: Because Australia.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, we go straight from high school into--

Host: Must remember that, people.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: It's fascinating how it differs around the world. But, yeah, so I did that and I had an opportunity. I was earning some money to get some traveling in, and a family sent me across to Germany from Australia, which was super exciting. So, I was actually teaching a girl, covering all her schoolwork. And she was a dressage rider, so she was at an international station training under someone over there in dressage. And they also had a breeding stallion in there. So, that was my second delve into sort of Gynecology and Obstetrics, was watching this stallion being collected. He was a very famous dressage stallion that competed at the Olympics. And so, I got hooked again.

Host: This is why I love doing this show. One, because, I was not exposed to a bunch of heifers and horses and sheep in Queens, New York City, which is very interesting. And, two, kind of the journey is so unique for everyone. But for everyone listening, dressage is a type of horse riding-- don't come at me horse people. I don't know a lot. Think of me as like Alexis Rose from Schitt's Creek. Like, I know of horses. They're lovely. I have examined them. But that's incredible. But to touch and to help with an Olympic horse, that's an experience that I'm sure is next level and is very exciting for you because not many people, even veterinarians who do horse work don't get to work on Olympic-caliber horses.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Oh, it was really cool and it got me hooked, so I haven't left the horses ever since. So, yeah, I loved it.

Host: That's cool.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. It loved it, but it was really, really fun. And then, I returned from there to vet school, heads down in the books. And it was actually during vet school that I worked as a research assistant in my third year of a what is a five-year degree in Australia and started working on a condition called strangles. That's another one for you, strangles in the horse caused by Streptococcus equi. And that was my first proper sort of delve to research. And then, I got a couple more chances in vet school coming to North Carolina State University and here to Cornell as a final year vet student, and been fascinated ever since. I'm really fascinated by the questions you can address. And discovering something new, I guess, is the really exciting part of being a scientist.

Host: I mean, I'm hearing that you went into the right aspect of Veterinary Medicine, including research, right? And I think that that's really neat. So for everybody listening, she went right from-- and I also think that the different education systems are really interesting-- they kind of go from high school and you kind of focus on the career you'd like to do, and then you get to go right into some like undergraduate studies, but right into your medical school training.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I know it's completely different, but you dive straight in. I still remember it. I would've been 19 at the time. Well, actually, I would've been 18, 18 and a bit. And walking into an anatomy class, and doing all the things that you do in anatomy classes and learning about animals and physiology and everything. So, it's a real eye-opener, but a lot of fun.

Host: 18, I am lucky I showed up for classes on time. I just want everybody to know that. And so, it's really interesting that people are going to school at such a young age. But it's, again, different system. So, I'm really excited about that. And you did this research as a third year veterinary student. When I have people listening, I want students to know how people seek out their own opportunities and paths. Did you know you wanted to do more research with horses and then you decided to seek out someone for a job? Or was there a job available and you were like, "Hey, I love horses and I need money"? Which many of us do, by the way.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, holiday jobs.

Host: Yes, exactly. We need to go home, we need to do all these things. So, how did that opportunity present itself to you?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. So, it was a little bit of all those things. So, thinking about what do I do over the holidays, and wanted to work with horses, curious about research. I don't think I really went out necessarily into the research, and I think that's it. I just was dipping my toe in the water. I was more thinking about horses being a horse vet for sure. That was sort of the trajectory of that job, and working with horses for the summer. But it kind of just ignited the flame and the interest of this is what I really want do. And then, it sort of took off from there.

And I think one thing, if people are seeking things that you don't have to have, you know, your passion of your life when you do those first experiences, just getting really good people around you and good opportunities to learn, I've learned through time has been like the critical part of it. So, exploring different things.

Host: Yes. And don't discount something that you think you might not be interested in just because you haven't done research before, or maybe you aren't familiar with horses as much as others.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, exactly. And one thing, I'll probably come back to you later, but I'm just amazed. You know, when you look across species, there are so many similarities in our biology. While there are some differences, there are many, many more similarities too. So, even when we go from people to animals, it's incredible.

Host: That's a huge part of the reason why I love it. I love being a veterinarian. And every day, I'm shocked by the new things we learn. And I'm like, "I swear I've been a doctor for 18 years," you know? Yeah. That's really new. So, how did you end up here at Cornell now?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: That's an Interesting question. I was laughing with a friend the other day that the first time I came to Cornell was a final year vet student. So, this was part of the Cornell's leadership program for veterinary students that was established in the early '90s. So, I was here in '98 as part of that program for the summer, working for 10 weeks.

Host: Love me some '90s fashion, by the way. Okay. Sorry to interrupt. But kids, it was where it was at.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: And music.

Host: Thank you. Exclamation point.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: But no, I came here to the Baker Institute for the summer. I worked in Doug Antczak's Laboratory in Equine Genomics for the summer, and got a taste of Cornell. And I swear they put like an elastic band on me, because I bounced back twice since. So, I came back for a postdoc here after I'd worked in clinical practice and done my PhD in Australia. And then, moved to London, then bounced back here two years ago as a faculty member.

Host: Wow. So, you've been here a couple of winters and you've stayed.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I've had. And I came back, yes. Even got the family back.

Host: Exactly. So, that's how they know they've got us, right? You've made it through winter and you're like, "This winter's actually not that bad," then you really know Ithaca has you.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Then, we were hit by the most recent winter, and that was quite a big winter. The first one that I was here, I was like, "Oh, this is nice, easy, and it's fine." This winter, we've had lots of golden snow.

Host: Wink. It's fine.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Good for skiing though. Good for skiing.

Host: As someone who does not ski, I'll find something else. It's pretty. It's really pretty. It's really pretty. But that's so neat. I actually went to Australia for the first time last year to go visit one doctor, Jessica McArt, who was on sabbatical, and had the best time. I did get to spend some time in Sydney and see the Opera House. And the food scene, so good.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I know I called her out the other day of having an Australian coffee cup, so I knew she'd been there. So, we're having a laugh.

Host: It was so lovely. And we can jump into, you know, some other things, but I know I have to talk to you about your research, because it is important. And I mean, really important. So, we're going to jump in. And she says, as she pre-Googled the pronunciation of some of the words including the research that this doctor does, your research involves understanding-- and I will read this-- The Fundamental Mechanisms That Underpin Aneuploidy, Genome Stability and Immune Regulation in Pregnancy. So for all of our non-scientists, our young, budding scientists and students, what the heck does that mean? Help us.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: So if you don't mind, I'm going to take you back to my clinical years because this is kind of where it all came from and why I do all the things I do. So, I'm going to give you a very short origin story. When I was in clinical practice, I was in clinical practice for a few years, and I was lucky enough to work in a really large equine practice that looked after neonatal foals. It was in Australia. Then, I did some time in England as well. And this unit was so busy, we'd have up to a hundred sick foals, neonatal foals, through the unit every month. Would you believe? So, even though it was a short time, I had this most incredible opportunity to learn about these foals, and find ways to treat them from two exceptional sort of mentors that really shared a lot of knowledge.

But what I kind of quickly realized, these foals are coming out sick, means they have a disease of pregnancy, so they've got sick during the pregnancy. As I've developed my skills over the years and my own research program, really, the fundamental thing we're trying to do is to ensure we get the birth of a neonate horse foal or baby that is healthy, alive, and programmed for lifelong health. And that's kind of our goal and what we are all striving for, I guess.

So, what our research program is, is trying to understand the things that prevent that happening. One of the things, very sadly, is if the pregnancy could be established, but then it's lost. We try and understand the underlying reasons for those pregnancies being lost. And then, we also try and understand other conditions of pregnancy that might lead to the foal being born, but being compromised. So, having some sort of condition that is sort of developed during pregnancy, that allows it to be born alive, but to have other fundamental challenges in early life. So, they're the kind of the fundamental things that we're trying to address.

Host: Yeah, I love that. So, I really appreciate-- and this is something that I think is quite valuable in research and in academia-- is people who were in clinical practice before recognizing what they see as a question that they would like to answer or help others answer. And I find that that's really important because seeing the clinical impact, I think, is very important, and lends to your passion for the research. But I think, doesn't this ever seem like a really daunting task to you? Because you not only have to think about-- you have to think about environmental factors, right? So where mom is, you have to think of about mom having an issue that will cause an issue with the baby. Then, you have to think about issues with the baby that might cause it. Does it ever seem like, "How will we do this? This is a tough day"?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: It's complicated. Yeah, it's very complicated. And so when we were sort of starting to build out the research program to, you know, you've got the question, but then you do what you just said and "Go, oh, where do I go with this?" So, we kind of went back to fundamentals sort of years ago and we're trying to say, "Well, what is the main question we want to address here?"

And so, we thought it could either be, essentially the problems could arise in the mare itself. So, the mare obviously plays a critical role in nurturing that developing embryo. She provides an environment in the uterus. Her immune system must adapt to support that baby to develop as well. And there's hormones that change in pregnancy and across pregnancy that are really critical to supporting it. So, it could be something there. It could be something external, as you said, like the nutrition sort of interfering with the mare. It could be pathogens, sort of infections such as viruses and bacteria that could infect the mare's uterus.

Host: I'm overwhelmed already.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: And it could be actually the embryo itself. So, we thought about the embryo. Essentially, the genetics of the embryo is half from mom and half from dad. And so, it's inheriting genes from both, and then it creates a whole new genetic being essentially. So, what we quickly realized when we were studying this is a lot had been done on the mare. A lot of people had looked at the uterus and looked at hormones a lot, but we knew practically nothing about how the embryo itself controls its own fate. And I started thinking a lot. I actually had young children at the time, and so I was thinking about they have a mind of their own.

Host: Good timing. I think what will never really change.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Exactly. But essentially, I thought, you know, they really are formed even in utero life with this sort of genetic programming, sort of controlling their own destiny. So, I was really fascinated by this concept of how that intrinsic ability of the embryo sort of interacts with the mare and the environment. And obviously, the embryo is really key in the context of the stallion, because it's inherited some of the genes from the stallion. So, that's where the stallion comes in.

And I thought we'd spent years thinking-- even in women's health actually-- we are thinking that miscarriage and pregnancy loss is a problem with the female. And if you think about how you're investigate that, even when you go on to the doctor, like it's often the first thing they do is do every test on the female, be it a horse, or this. And I started thinking, "Well, what happens if it's not always about the female? It could be something out of the female's control." It could be something you cannot control, but it might not-- let's kind of back to that embryo and see how it's controlling its own life. So, that's kind of where we've really focused actually a lot of our work recently on the genetic characteristics of the embryo and seeing if there are certain genetic characteristics that are incompatible with life so that they're not going to make their way through to birth because there is something in the blueprint, the DNA blueprint that is telling us that the genes and the proteins that are made just don't function normally anymore.

And so, that's sort of one of the main fundamental questions we've spent a lot of time thinking about of late, is what are those things that go wrong with the blueprint that lead to that embryo not developing and producing a live born animal.

Host: Wow. And I said that really fancy word that I Googled. It's not that fancy, but it's sort of fancy for the rest of us, that aneuploidy. And that's essentially a condition where these foals or these babies, they might have an abnormal number of chromosomes, right? So, they're either missing some or maybe they have extra and maybe a condition we might know of on the human side is something like Down syndrome, I think people talk about a lot. But sometimes these things happen and then these foals are never born. And that's what you are looking at, like, was there information past that complicated things or wasn't past?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, exactly. So, we were trying to find, did they have abnormal, that's kind of our first question. Do they have a normal numbers of chromosomes and could that be an explanation for these pregnancies not progressing along? And so, we were really excited when we found out. That was one of the main reasons. You know, so just between 50-60% of the ones that the pregnancies that don't progress through early pregnancy are due to an abnormal number of chromosomes. So, it's about half. Very similar to what you'd see in women, for example. So if women suffer from miscarriage, the most common reason in that early period is that embryo inheriting that abnormal, or gaining during development an abnormal number of chromosomes. It sort of messes up the whole blueprint.

Host: Yeah. And this is another thing I really appreciate about Veterinary Medicine and kind of this One Health look at everything, how it could equate to what we see on the human side. Because quite a few women, I don't know the exact statistic, but personally I know quite a few women who have lost pregnancies and obviously who have tried to become pregnant. So, this is not a one answer to everything. But wow, 50%, that's a fair amount.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, really? Because you have about, I think the literature would suggest about 23 million pregnancy losses worldwide. So very sadly, people don't talk about, do they? It's one of those things that often gets--

Host: It's not taboo, but shameful. People feel bad, it's... yeah.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. And it comes back to the thing about-- I think often the women feels responsible for it and, you know, it cause causes a lot of distress. So, I think trying to find out-- that's sort of a real driver for me-- is really trying to find out the cause so those people don't carry that sort of burden on them. If we can try and find better diagnostics and reasons for these losses, they can manage that, you know, as a couple.

Host: Yeah.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: And understand, you know, the true reason and what they could do, or sometimes you can't do anything, you know, sometimes it's just a bit of bad luck.

Host: Yeah. Sometimes we just need to know it's out of our control sometimes, right? And on the animal side, some people can lose foals that are worth significant amounts of money. So this is business. There's some widespread effects here. I guess my question is, how would you like to see your research impact the human side? Is it this, is it trying to help, like, correlate the two and allow for some discoveries on their end?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. So yeah, I'm really passionate about a-- I really would like that intersection between animals and people. And so, I really, really love that. But essentially, what we can think about is on the horse side, what's quite unique about horses is from a gynecological care, so that is just how a doctor looks after a pregnant animal, is how it's been monitored. Essentially, in horses, they're very intensely managed. So, a lot of horses these days will have certain procedures to get pregnant and to conceive. And then, they have their first ultrasound test. So, this is where we put the sort of camera on and try and image the pregnancy and the developing fetus. They'll do that as early as two weeks after that baby has formed, after the embryo is formed. And so, it's really, really early.

So, you could think of it if anyone's sort of familiar with like a pregnancy test in humans, that's often done buying a test from the chemist, that's done about the same time, that very first test, but it's not done with a camera essentially. So, that's sort of the first time we can, and then often they're monitored weekly. So because of this, we can actually track the pregnancy, we can track its growth, we can determine when it's failing. And then the veterinarians, if it's failing, can flush out the embryo when we know it's no longer. Viable, it's not going to live. And then, we can study that material. So, that's giving us access to material over these really key early embryo stages that you wouldn't get in people essentially. And so, it gives us a completely new window. And it's also in a species, like a lot of horses get the same types of medications that we use in humans in how we change the reproductive cycle so we can study the effects of those. So, we can use this material to try and discover sort of new genes and that might be responsible for genetic changes that might be responsible for miscarriage.

Host: Yeah. And that window is much smaller than I think would be found in humans, right? So, probably humans can't have ultrasounds every two weeks. I don't know if they do. I do not know the answer to that, everyone, but I'm sure insurance would not want one every two weeks.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, good point. And then, normally six to seven weeks is often when their first sort of scan is happening and then 12 weeks roughly.

Host: So, that window might have passed.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, you might've had that passed and you don't capture those really early losses. And people have tried to study or model it in mice. For example, so your rodent models. But what they found is by genetically modulating the mice, they've been able to discover lots of potential genes. But when they've translated it back to humans, a very small percentage of those are actually being found to be causing the disease in humans. So, we don't know if that's just because it's mouse-specific or we don't know in this type whether we just haven't discovered them yet in humans because we haven't had like a lot of this time period. So, that's kind of the gap, which we're going to fill with the horse as well as benefiting the horse itself, is trying to fill that really early gap of the first sort of six weeks of the embryonic and fetal life and try and understand what goes wrong then.

Host: I could talk to you about that all day, but I'm supposed to ask you other questions. And I'm going to try to move on. But that is just so interesting to me. And I just think it's another neat thing to hear that people are actively researching because, again, it's important and has implications in other areas, both on the human side and probably for other animals, which you mentioned.

And so, okay, so research is part of your work here at Cornell. And then, while you're free, you also-- I say free. Everyone, I'm joking, free is in like quotation marks"-- you have this pretty significant leadership role, more than one. And I want to just touch upon that because-- and we're going to touch upon a couple-- but you are the founding director of an initiative at Cornell called Cornell Equine. This was launched in late 2024. Can you tell us about this initiative? Like, what prompted it and what are the goals of this program? Things like that.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, it's a real privilege to be part of this. And I think there's been so much done around this initiative already before I got here, so I should put that upfront. I just came at a time to sort of--

Host: Props out. Given her props.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: It's a really longstanding. So equine stuff, which you believe there's a great story. So, I hope you don't mind me telling it again. But there's a great story about Cornell's sort of equine origins, that was back to when it was originally sort of founded. And Andrew Dickson White was going across to Europe to get new faculty back in the sort of 1860s.

Host: I was just going to say, guys, this is like the late 1800s. Talking about if you don't know much about Cornell history, it's pretty impactful. Look it up.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. Long time ago. But yeah, Ezra Cornell was supposedly standing on the dock and called out to him, "Don't forget the horse doctor." And so, I kind of think of horses as being part of sort of Cornell's sort of structure since its very first days. And some great photos I've seen recently of some teaching done. In those very, very early days in the horse. But, you know, it really has ramped up, I think, since the 1970s. And we have a huge amount of research going on here at the moment. So, we've got 35 faculty with active horse-related research projects on the discover side, which is I was really blown away when I sort of looked at that. We've obviously got our clinical care in our Equine Hospital, Cornell University Equine Hospital. And then, you've got a lot of learning going on. We've got actually an animal science degree with equine subjects down in CALS. And then, you've got--

Host: CALS is our undergraduate agriculture program at Cornell University. So, they do a lot of animal science and things as well, but on the equine you're saying.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: But there's a group here that's focusing on the equine. They also run the Cornell Cooperative Extension. So, they do a lot of outreach work across the state, around equine education, which is really cool as well, and obviously our veterinary degree, and residents and internships, which I'm hearing people would know about. So, that's really exciting. We've got sort of all the students across those breadths. We've even got like farrier courses. And so, there's a lot going on on the learn side.

The other area which I've really had a lot of fun learning about is we've got a big compete side. So, we had athletics department that have active polo and equestrian teams here at the moment, and they've been highly successful. So, a lot of our undergrads are in those programs, and they've won nationals multiple times. I think the women's polo this year won nationals. And we had several equestrian writers at nationals this year. So, they're really fantastic. So, I think the idea of this program was to try and bring all of those equine parts together, and see how we can work as a community to try and tackle some of the big outstanding problems.

As I mentioned at the beginning, there was a big report done by some colleagues here back in 2019 that reviewed all this and put it together. And we reviewed with some clinical science colleagues as well, and we sort of said together, "Wow, there's so much going on. We should be bringing this together and finding sort of new ways to communicate." And there were two big things we're trying to tackle, I guess, to take away. Well, one was we really wanted to produce sort of, well sort, highly trained equine vets and retain them in their profession. And so, you know, there needs to be people out there looking after horses, caring for them. So, what we wanted to do is see if we can start to sort of coordinate our mentoring. That's one of my favorite things, is mentoring, like from high school all the way through vet school. So, how do we sort of build out a program to do that?

So, this summer, we've got a program. We're working with Cooperative Extension. Cornell has done this for many years. Our vet school has done this for many years now. But we're sort of firming that up and trying to say, "How do we support these students all the way through and retain them? So, that's one big thing, and it requires the coordination. And then, the other bit part with all of these researchers, we're starting to think, like, how do we work together to try and tackle some multidisciplinary problems? So, how do we take all of these skills to tackle some of the more difficult problems of equine health. And so, that's where we've just launched a new seminar series so we can share ideas each month across the community and, hopefully, launch a new sort of grand challenges or something like that, which is part of one of the colleges initiatives at the moment. Maybe we can do that in the equine space. So, early days, but some exciting stuff going across campus.

Host: That's really exciting. There are so many things I loved in all of what you just said. One on the podcast, if people here are listening, they've listened to more than one episode-- they've heard me talk about diversity of thought and how that contributes to research and furthering scientific thoughts and furthering, again, what we do and how we accomplish things, sometimes quicker than if somebody was doing research alone. Maybe the polo team has noticed something about their horses. Congratulations to the women's polo team, by the way. It's that diversity of thought that can help bring ideas and hypotheses, things that maybe never occurred to you. So, I want to applaud that because I think that that's lovely. And I think sometimes we don't think about some areas in animal medicine, things like that, husbandry, that really can contribute to our research, even though it might not seem straightforward.

And finally, your focus on mentorship. Oh, big hearts. Because high school is really where we want to have impact. Even middle school is where we want to have impact. And for our listeners, equine vets and I just talked about this on another program, equine vets can be very difficult to find. A lot of our students don't go into equine medicine. And then, if they go into equine medicine, they typically don't stay in equine medicine, right? So, we want them to feel supported. We want them to have mentorship. We want them to get paid well for their knowledge. We want them to have the knowledge and the passion to go do this. So, this is exciting on so many levels, and I just want to say, I'm so happy you're doing this.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: it's really exciting. Just at the beginning, there's so much we can do. And so, many incredible people across campus making it possible. I'm really excited. I was listening to some of your podcasts, I wrote down diversity of thought on my piece of paper in front of me, because I thought that was a great way of putting it. Be cause we talk about, think about that in the lab as well. Like when you're thinking about research, like connecting with horse owners and, you know, because they bring different perspectives.

One of my research projects essentially came out years ago out of meeting with a stud farm owner. And this is a horse, so stud farm is a property like a horse farm where they keep horses and they're breeding them. And she was telling me about this condition that was causing pregnancy loss in her mares. She said, "It's really a big problem, Mandi. And I don't know what's going on." And essentially, it was a condition where the umbilical cord was getting twisted, and I was like, "Well, I don't know anything about this. This is really fascinating." So, I went to read up about it and realized actually we don't know much about it at all, but it was super common. And so, I have heard a thing for really sparking that curiosity and sort of partnering on that.

Host: I love that. I find that sometimes in Veterinary Medicine, we know things are common and we just kind of accept it. Not because we don't want to understand it, but sometimes it's things that have been around for a long time and we think, "Well, someone must have studied that. They probably know why that person is not me. And then, sometimes we realize, "Wow! Maybe it just hasn't been said because it's difficult to catch," right? So, thank you for mentioning that.

So, you have this-- I'm laughing because again I'm sure she doesn't have much free time. So, you lead this amazing initiative and like, as if that's not enough, you were just named the new Director of the Baker Institute for Animal Health this past February. And for those who don't know, the Baker Institute is essentially an institution that's dedicated to studying veterinary infectious diseases, immunology, cancer, genomics, and reproduction. So a lot of things are under the umbrella of this institute. What made you want to tackle this also?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Correct. Correct.

Host: She was like, "I have some time on Fridays."

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, this is an amazing place actually.

Host: It is.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I feel such an honor and a privilege to take on the role up here. It really is. But would you believe it's 75 years this year since it was established? So, we've got a birthday party here this year, which we're all very excited about and planning some events for.

Host: If there's cake, I'll be there.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, we've had some cake. We'll definitely have you back for cake.

Host: I'll be there.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: So, excited about that. So essentially, what Baker is, is sort of this unique environment. We're positioned well off the vet school. So, we're about two miles away, but we're all very much part of the vet school established to be a part of the College of Veterinary Medicine 75 years ago. But it was really established to be one location really dedicated to studies of animal health, so animal research. In its early days, I really thought it was really about this, and you'll see a theme in a moment, but it's about connecting with communities. It's done a lot of research like fundamental science research where it studies samples that get sent in by clinicians from all around the country and all around the world.

Host: Sure. Samples meaning like blood and urine and tissue in cases of like disease where they samples and they submit this to you, just for everyone listening.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. Yeah. So, blood either from a disease or even just like a DNA sample to study DNA or maybe infectious agents. So, probably, Baker, it's early thing that it was most famous for was something that came out in the late '70s, early '80s, was parvovirus. So, the parvovirus vaccine was developed here. That's given to dogs now all around the world. So, it's done a lot of that. You mentioned the infectious disease first. That was kind of its early years. We're really heavily focused on those sort of infectious diseases.

Host: Just as an aside, if you do small animal medicine or you are interested in small animal, as someone who practiced in a part of California that saw quite a few parvo dogs, the vaccine was life-changing because I've seen many dogs unfortunately pass away from parvo. I've seen many also make it through with significant care, but not an easy thing. So, that is a very cool thing to be under the auspices of the Baker Institute, right? Like the parvo vaccine is a big deal.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, it's something that's sort of rolled out. So, that kind of is one of its sort of early things. Distemper, there was also rinderpest. So, a number of big viral diseases. It's sort of some amazing sort of predecessors here having sort of big impacts. And that's how it sort of started connecting to communities, because the veterinarians were faced with these issues and they would, you know, take samples and send it up here. And then, they studied those viruses as the outbreak's happening, and then worked on solutions.

And so, that kind of approach has really rolled out now across other platforms where we have worked around fertility. We have sort of fundamental research around cancer, as you said, but the same sort of approach of doing sort of fundamental science or often on clinical samples with sort of translational outcomes. And what I mean by translational means that we can jump to a diagnostic test or to a treatment or preventative medicine relatively quickly. Although science always-- when I say relatively, it takes a lot of years.

Host: She means relatively, yes. Sometimes a slower process, but that's so neat because you're your own institution. But you're still connected to the veterinary school. So, that translational approach is really neat, because you're in proximity. Different buildings don't necessarily make a huge difference right now, you know?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Host: What excites you most about this role? I mean, you're doing all this exciting research, so what about being the director that excites you? Because it's not the paperwork, everyone. It's not the paperwork. That's not the answer, just so we know.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Oh, that's so funny. I guess what is most exciting to me here is the way they do science. And so, I've been learning so much about what's going on across all the labs here. You know, I work in my own field, but it's a real privilege to be able to learn about the incredible science across the whole institution. And just the way they do, the way people are doing science here, and the way they're thinking about things.

I'll tell you another example from one of our labs, like studying the fundamental biochemistry of sperm has led to essentially a stool side or bedside diagnostic test that they're now developing for stroke. So, faculty do these crazy things like take something like-- you know, I'd got into trouble the other day, Michelle, because I said, "Oh, we break the rules," and then I thought I better explain what I mean by that.

Host: No one likes hearing that at Cornell, by the way.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I know. So in science, what you do in science, you can get sort of in small little areas in research. So if you think of people, you tend to focus on one thing for a long period of time. But a lot of our faculty here really like-- you know, this is an example where they are studying sperm. So, they are reproductive biologist. But now, they're developing a test for stroke, which is a condition that's in the brain and neurological condition. And that's sort of just an example of how they don't like to sort of stay here. They follow the science and find really sort of interesting, interesting ideas.

So, that's sort of been really exciting for me to watch that, learn about that and, I guess, talked about that to people. Because Baker's had this longstanding sort of relationship communicating science to people outside of the institute. And it's really fun to be able to get those messages out and work with other people and talk about that.

Host: That is exciting and a lot of fun. And I think, for those listening, I think sometimes as someone, or before I was in science or who have family members who are not in science, they don't understand how one person can probably study one disease or even one aspect of disease. And it could take their entire career. It could take their entire career. Yes, there are enough questions there, but what's neat about what you're saying. And what I love to talk to people about on this podcast is they've asked themselves a question, and then they got another question, they're like, "Oh, I think I'm going to go there." "Oh, shiny. Wait, hold on." It's not a big distraction, but they want to answer that question. So yeah, they started off with sperm-- me saying things I never expected to say on the podcast-- and then now they're studying strokes, which is I think a really lovely thing about science, and I talk about pivoting. Sometimes you don't have to pivot careers. You could just pivot topics or aspects of things you're studying, the passion can still be there. And you could tackle these new things. So, I love that.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, it's really, really fun. And the other thing I guess that's going on here, which feeds into my interest is a lot of the work is about these shared benefits between animals and humans. And so, really thinking about our companion animals in a different way. So, a lot of what we do is that fundamental sort of research, and that's really fun thinking that you can bring benefits. It's a real privilege really to think you could try and bring benefits to animals and humans alike. I think it's really fun.

Host: Yes. And lead to helping another team with what they do, right? It's just so gratifying. I love Veterinary Medicine. I love research. I love science. Oh, wait, okay. I love research most of the time. So, you have these jobs, you know, you're not doing, you're just not busy. You're just the Director of the Baker Institute and you're doing this Cornell Equine initiative. And oh yeah, you have your day job as a researcher. What do you do when you are not at work? Because we're humans, and I want everybody to know this. We've talked about this a lot on this podcast. We are just not our jobs. We are more. So, what do you do when you are not working?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, what are we doing? So, I've got three kids.

Host: Oh my gosh. Just busy.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Mostly with them three kids. I love making cakes.

Host: I I took cake decorating courses. I love making cakes.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. Oh, because that was my big thing. When the kids were little, I used to love making these extravagant sort of cakes that were all decorated in different way, kids' cakes. That was kind of really fun. Now, they've evolved to different other types of adult cakes, but it's been really fun. So between those two things, then just hanging out with friends, doing hikes. That's really fun.

Host: Oh, she's a hiker, everyone.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, not a big hiker.

Host: That's one thing I haven't picked up on. That is one thing I have not picked up on.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, it's an Ithaca thing, isn't it? Like, I must say I wasn't before this, but in England, when I moved across from England, they have all these bridle ways, like where you can walk through people's properties. It's a bit crazy actually. So, you can just walk through private property if there's a formal bridle. So, you can go--

Host: What?!

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah, it's very different. So, I've learned that here with all the waterfalls. It's great. You can actually make the most of all the waterfalls and hikes everywhere.

Host: It really is beautiful. I know, I joke, and I've said this before, that I am outsidey not outdoorsy. So a hike, but next to a waterfall, I'm in. I'm willing to get to the waterfall. So, a couple of things, because I know your time is precious. Do you have any-- I've used this scenario in the past. You're at a party. You don't get to go to a party-- and not like the Cornell Anniversary party-- you're at another party. You're at a party where you get to socialize. Maybe you're having cake. Sometimes people are having drinks. And you're like, what's the story I would share about a day that I had at work in practice or in research that you were like, "I need to share this story I can't believe that happened"? Do you have something like that?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Oh, that's a great one. You might have stumped me there, Michelle. --

Host: I'm okay with that. It's okay. The pressure's on.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I know. I'm trying to think of the ones from practice. When you're a vet, you do have amazing experiences though on two levels. I think there's the animal experiences, but you just get to experience all of humanity. I think that's the most cool thing about being a vet. And you get to hear different perspectives. You know, when you're treating the animals, I think you're often treating the owners as well in an indirect way, because you're caring for people and you learn so much. I've heard so many stories from all these clients that I used to work with years and years ago of their lives that were brought into that

Host: mess.

Yes. And I appreciate that. And it doesn't have to be, and I want everybody listening, obviously, I joke around about these stories, but as veterinarians, often, if you're in clinical practice at all, you are often with owners and that's small animal horses, goats, anybody. You're with owners at some of the happiest times of their lives and some of the most difficult times of their lives. And that is one thing I did not expect becoming a veterinarian. And sometimes you're one of the only people they talk to. The human animal bond is a very unique thing. And if they're with their animal all the time and then they see you and you're the only person they see routinely, it's so impactful. And, I think, I just want to make sure that everybody listening knows that. So, I very much love that you said that.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. And it's about people, isn't it? And yeah, you've had some humanity, I think. And it's such a privilege to be involved in those journeys. And it's hard. If anyone's a junior vet, like you know, when you're just starting out. I think that's the hardest lesson in a way. Because you take on so much of, you know, people's lives and you can take them on board and it piles on top of you. And it can be really, really tricky when you're piling all that on and taking on everyone else's challenges.

Host: Yes. And that is emotionally draining and can be tough. Okay. So, a few final things. What would you say-- what is one bit of advice that you would give to a student who is thinking about research?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Okay. So, I think-- can I give two?

Host: Oh, we love that. The students are ready.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: So, coming back to what I said, surround yourself with good mentors. So, I think that, you know, that's the fundamental thing. I've been so, so lucky, Michelle, over my career. This is the most amazing people around me, and I just think it really matters. It really does. And when I say a good mentor, there's no such thing as a good mentor. It's a good match for you, I think that's the key. And some of my best mentors have helped me in different ways. And even actually at the time, I might not have even thought they were helping me, but maybe even 10 years time, I'm like--

Host: Translation. We were like, "Grrr." And then, like, "Oh, wait. They were right."

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Actually, they were really right. Yeah. So, you know, they're really, really amazing. So, people are really generous with their time. And so, surround yourself with people that really help you, lift you up, find your way, I think that are good for you.

Host: I would expand that to your general life as well, everyone. Like, find joy, the people that help you find joy, okay? Yes. And number two?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: My two is don't take failure or hardship too personally. So, you know, my family watches this show called Ted Lasso.

Host: I love that show.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: It's my favorite show. I love it.

Host: My gosh.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: It has this, saying, which--

Host: Apple TV, everyone, if you don't know where it's playing.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: So, he has this saying, he said to his son, "Just pretend You're a goldfish to forget something." I should add as a veterinarians, I have since looked that up and actually goldfish don't have bad memories. I since read and looked at the science and they actually have a reasonable memory, but his theory--

Host: I love that you do that. Yup. I love it.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: But his theory was to be a goldfish and just forget things sometimes. And, you know, you need to learn from somethings--

Host: It's like let them go.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Just sometimes you need to have a short memory of certain things and keep going on. And I think, you know, that is absolutely critical to success in anything that you do, is trying to let go of these things.

Host: Yes. Another great quote from that show, everyone, "Be curious, not judgmental." We love that. We love that. And you might appreciate this. I have a cat named Roy Kent.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Oh, I wait till I go home and tell my family.

Host: Yep.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: They have lots of impersonations all the time.

Host: Oh, I love it. Okay, two quick questions before I let you go because I try to get couple of fun ones in. When you are doing your research or writing a grant, and you're in your zone, is there music playing in the background?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yes.

Host: What is it?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I actually use Spotify focus music that's like classical, but their classical takes on rock songs. So pop songs.

Host: Oh, they do that?

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Yeah. So, they're like classical takes on pop and rock songs and that's what I have if I really need to focus and block things out, which I really need to make time for these days. Otherwise, I'd jump from meetings to meetings. So, it's really I just put this on and that puts me in the focus zone.

Host: In the zone. Love it. And then, I was going to ask you about cake, but people honestly know that I'm addicted to sugar, so I'm probably going to stray from that. What is one thing that most people don't know about you, that you're willing to share? One fun fact. Just little nugget for our knowledge to take away.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Oh, one fun fact. I think, I've disclosed the three kids now, so not many people know that though.

Host: Yep. You can't reuse that.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: I can't reuse that one. I've got a really cool, gorgeous research dog who traveled over from England with us a couple of years ago called Vault with a V. Because he used to be quite electric dog running around. And he is great fun. And he was a dog that was from study of muscular dystrophy actually. He's a great example. So, I'm sort of living what I say. He's an example of shared benefits for human and animals. So, he's from a parentage that had a mutation in the blueprint in his DNA that led to muscular dystrophy in some of his siblings. And they've been trying to study how to prevent this in the dogs, but also in young boys as well. It's the same type of mutation in boys. So, Vault is a prized member of our family. He seems to have a love for American wildlife. He's been skunked. So, we've learned that was our initiation two weeks after arriving from England. But he is a very much loved member of our family that gets very indulged these days by sitting snuggly up on couches and keeping everyone in the house happy.

Host: That sounds like a great life. And yeah, I may own a dog that I also adopted from my rotation, right? The students learned how to do surgery. And now, I have the most polite and quiet dog on the planet. But thank you so much for sharing your time with us, for sharing what you do at Cornell, for sharing your research. It is extraordinary.

For those of you listening, please check out the Cornell Equine, check out the Baker Institute. Check out Dr. de Mestre's research online. It's incredible. You can Google and find a whole bunch of research. And just thank you. Thank you for, for sharing your world with us. We really appreciate it.

Amanda de Mestre, PhD, PGCAP: Well, thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I really had a lovely time chatting with you and hearing about your interests as well. So, thank you so much for your time.

Host: Why, thank you. I appreciate you. I appreciate all of you listening or some of you might be watching. If you are, I am wearing more Cornell swag. Cornell, reach out to me with some other color options if possible. Like and listen on your favorite platform. Subscribe if you want to hear us whenever we drop a new episode. And thank you so much everybody, and we will talk to you soon.