Michelle Moyal, DVM (Host): Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Cornell Veterinary Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Moyal, visiting assisting clinical professor—oh, she has to take a breath, but she'll breathe even more when she reads her guest's bio today—also, hopefully, your Purina veterinarian of choice. I got a little Purina swag going on today.

My guest today is Dr. Jordyn Boesch, Associate Professor in the Section of Anesthesiology and Pain Medicine and founder of the Comparative Pain Program at Cornell. You know, everyone, we're going to explain everything. Dr. Bash is a 2006 graduate of the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine. Might I add, one of my upperclassmen. She was just ahead of me in school, so we are taking this way back. She completed a residency in anesthesiology at Cornell in 2010—in anesthesiology, excuse me, and pain management. We don't want to forget that because that's very important to a clinician like me in practice, right, in clinical practice. She focuses her research on pain and its management, particularly interventional, which I will ask you about, and chronic pain management in all species. You heard it here. Doesn't matter if it's big, doesn't matter if it's teeny, she's got you. She has got you.

And she's also—here's where I need the extra breaths—she is also a member of the International Society for the Study of Pain. She is a Diplomat of the American College of Veterinary Anesthesia and analgesia—woo, I'm really struggling today—the DACVAA because veterinary medicine loves acronyms—and an ACVAA—if I say it like that, I almost sound like I am doing little rap. Yeah, I'll never be that cool—founding fellow, which is very cool, in pain management. So, welcome to the show, Dr. Boesch. I'm beyond excited because she's also a cool person and my friend, everyone.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Thanks, Dr. Moyal. We are indeed good friends, very dear old friends.

Host: So, I had a lot of trouble saying all of these things because I'm also exhausted from playing basketball last night. It's only been 20 years since I picked up a basketball. And we're going to talk about your hobbies too, but shout out to Ithaca B-Ball, because I went and did like drills and, like, played some basketball. And it was a lot of fun. So, there are a lot of fun things here in Ithaca, everyone listening. You know, it's not just the amazing Cornell.

I think a lot of people don't know that veterinarians can become board-certified anesthesiologists, right? We may think about it in human medicine. So, I've had procedures, and they check in, "Hey, let's talk about drugs. Let's talk about if you're allergic to anything." So, could you briefly tell people just a little bit about being an anesthesiologist and maybe why you decided to do it?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah, I would love to. And yeah, anesthesia, it's true is just one of many specialties, of course, that you can be board-certified in. And now, you can be board-certified in primary care too. But as far as anesthesiology, I guess I'll start with why I got into it. I'll say that I did not know that I wanted to be an anesthesiologist.

Host: We love hearing that here.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yes. It was a different fork in the road than I thought I was going to take. And it started during my internship year. And I saw some pretty awful cases of uncontrolled pain in my first year out in practice. And I realized that we don't always have the ability to control an animals' pain well. We certainly try, but sometimes we don't have the knowledge or the equipment to do so effectively. And it really bothered me. And that's when I decided that I was going to spend my entire career just dedicated to pain management. And it's certainly not everything that an anesthesiologist does. But it is a big component. And there are certainly other specialties who work heavily in pain management. But it is a major subspecialty within anesthesiology. And I really enjoy keeping patients safe and comfortable during, you know, what's, for many of them, the most vulnerable time in their life when they're under anesthesia and undergoing these painful procedures, yeah.

Host: I appreciate that. So, a couple of things for everyone listening. Brief review, when you graduate from veterinary school and pass your national board exams, you are a veterinarian. Then, we can go on to apply for something called an internship, which we've done and you get additional training and all sorts of different topics and maybe different species. And then, she went on to do this additional training in anesthesiology and pain management. But here's what I love the most. She saw a situation in practice that could almost seem helpless. And for some of us, we might be like, "Well, we'll just do our best as a clinician." But she decided to do something about it, and I just really appreciate that.

Now, I have no opinion either way, because I was the person that was like, "I will just do the best I can with what I have," or try to figure out additional drugs or things like that. But she went on to make this really big impact. So, I'm just really proud of her and excited to talk to her.

And another thing I want everybody to realize is she could anesthetize, again, an animal that's as small as a snake or a turtle, which by the way is very difficult because sometimes it's really even difficult to find their heartbeat, to let's just say rhinoceros, because I believe you've done a bit of work there. And when you are under anesthesia, it does not necessarily mean that you can't feel pain. You are just sedated and can't tell anyone, right? So, an animal can't tell us.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: That is true. If they're not, you know, at the appropriate depth, we call it, of anesthesia, then there, there can be awareness or some degree of pain, of course. If we're doing our jobs right, there isn't. But yeah, it's true that when you become board-certified anesthesiology, you have to be able to anesthetize anything from a mouse to an elephant. So, not that I do elephants or rhino every day, but I have.

Host: She must be great at a party, everyone. Really. So, I mentioned a lot in your bio. And I mentioned this comparative pain program that now you're kind of spearheading and taking care of. So, talk to me, what is this?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, this is something that's been near and dear to me for many, many years. And I was recently able to kick it off. Essentially, what it is, it's a consortium of individuals.

Host: Okay. Is that a bougie way of saying just a group, a group of different individuals? You know, I try to simplify it for our audience sometimes.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Exactly. Just a club consisting of a lot of different individuals. Some of us are veterinarians, not just anesthesiologists, but other specialists as well. Some are what we call basic scientists. So, scientists who study pain at the molecular level, trying to develop new drugs and treatments. And also, we have a human anesthesiologist. A great guy. He works at our sister hospital, Weill Cornell Medical Center in the Department of anesthesiology.

Host: Hey, New York City, we're looking at you. But everyone listening, listen to—and I like to highlight this—collaboration makes projects better, it makes systems better.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Absolutely. Pain is such a complex topic that one specialist, you know, one type of scientist can't tackle it alone. So, it's really important that veterinarians working in different disciplines. Everyone from basic scientists to those of us who do what we call clinical research, all work together to address pain from different angles.

Host: So cool. And so, this program does what? Like what's the focus? I know, well, obviously pain and collaboration, but what do we do with that?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah. So, three missions to the comparative pain program, and each of us sort of focuses on, one, sometimes more than one, of those missions. And those would be research, of course, from, you know, the basic pain science, molecular level to clinical science research, meaning in actual patients in the hospital undergoing, for example, surgery and, of course, clinical pain management. So, we have an acute and chronic pain service where we—

Host: Wow. So, like sudden pain versus animals who've been dealing with pain for quite a while, because there are a lot of changes involved in that in your body.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Exactly. And different causes. And we work with other specialists to manage that pain. It's a group effort. And then, teaching, we do a lot of veterinary student teaching, as well as teaching primary care vets and other specialists. So, it's a triple mission: research, clinical service, and education.

Host: So, I mean, you already had a lot on your plate. Like, you're an anesthesiologist, you're a fellow and founding—you know, you're looking into all of this pain management. So, why did you decide to add this on? Like, she probably could've been okay. She still would've been busy, everyone. She didn't have to. Maybe she just wanted to watch a Netflix show. But here we are. She did this, she created this.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Well, I do still find time to do fun things, believe it or not. We must.

Host: We'll ask about that.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Very important. But there were a few reasons. One of the big ones was I wanted to bring basic pain scientists in contact with veterinarians. Because as we all know, humans and animals share the same anatomy and physiology, very similar nervous systems, right?

Host: Very much so. Yes.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: And a lot of the painful things that happen to animals, nearly the exact same thing happens to people. And so, we are all—it's a one health issue, both animals and people suffer from pain, a lot of the time from the same disease processes. And so, we can learn from each other in order to help everyone, both humans and animals, because a lot of the treatments are virtually identical.

Host: That is awesome. And I want people to understand, and I hope it doesn't sound to everyone, like I'm being like too farfetched. When an owner sees their pet in pain, they are distressed.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Absolutely.

Host: If an owner is in pain, a pet senses it. If an owner is in pain and can't take their dog for a walk, then the dog doesn't walk, then the dog not necessarily suffers, but that mobility is important. And that affects the relationship of the animal and their person, right? So, this is far reaching. This is not just pain.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: No, it's quality of life.

Host: "Just pain," right? Yes. It's quality of life. And it affects what we call the human-animal bond. So, I want everybody to listen to this because, in practice—and I'm going to ask Dr. Boesch about this in a little bit—in practice, it was very interesting for me to see a client that would say, "Yeah, my dog's been limping for like three weeks." And I'd be like, "Oh gosh, you know, they're pretty painful." And they'd be like, "No, no, I don't think they're painful. They're just limping" without understanding that a human that would be limping for three weeks is not putting weight on the leg, because they hurt. So, there was like a disconnect in some areas as well. And that was tough and that was very tough as a clinician.

So, I'm talking about how to figure out pain and things like this. Can you give us some context here for everyone listening? Like, what tools and techniques do you use for pain management? Is there a standard? I say this, but Dr. Boesch and I have talked about pain scales and stuff for years, because I used it regularly when I was teaching at the vet school. But like, are you hoping to change kind of the status quo? So, what's on the docket right now, and what do we hope to change?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah. That's a great question. So, one of our teaching missions is educating pet owners, animal lovers about what pain looks like in their animals. How do you know when your pet's in pain? And we've come a long way in the profession in terms of diagnosing pain based on usually behaviors. So, abnormalities in behavior and there are a lot of them, and they vary with species, that indicate, you know, that they're hurting. And some of these what are called pain scales, which allow you to diagnose the presence and the severity of pain based on how many of these behaviors they're displaying have been very well-studied. And we try to use those whenever we can to objectively tell us when an animal is in pain. But there are some types of pain that we do not have good ways of assessing. And so, you know, there are signs that owners should be aware of. Sometimes they're misinterpreted as just a behavioral anomaly.

Host: Sure.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: And the owner doesn't realize that they can actually be a sign of a specific type of pain. So yeah, owner education about behavioral signs and studying these behaviors are important missions of ours.

Host: That's awesome. So, when she mentioned pain scale, it's essentially for us kind of like a checklist where we're like, "Okay, the dog has this behavior, this behavior" and almost we could use math and add it up and get a score. But that score certainly doesn't account for all types of pain, right?

And so, like research is showing things like, "Oh, if a dog eats things that are not food, you know, rocks or clothes, maybe they're doing it because they have some belly pain, right? Some intestinal pain." And so, as someone who works for a nutrition company, I study this because I'm like, "Well, I want to address that discomfort. I might address it through diet to see if I can help with inflammation and things, but that pet might need drugs." But recognizing it is so difficult. I'm going to ask her a question. Are you ready? And I got this all the time in practice, but I want her to say it out loud for the masses. But Dr. Boesch, my dog isn't crying. It can't be in pain. Is that true?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: That is categorically untrue.

Host: Right. Thank you for that.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yes. Yeah. So, that's a big misconception. It's not that they never cry when they're in pain, but they can be in significant pain and not vocalize. And it's just because dogs and humans just may not express pain in the same way. It doesn't mean that they're not feeling it, it just means that they're not showing it the way we do.

Host: Right. I'm just so glad you said that because it is hard. I understand somebody might be like, "Well, if you were in severe pain, you'd be screaming." But I have seen animals, I cannot believe that they are not screaming, considering how injured they are. So, it's pretty wild.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Remember that if it's a prey species, like a horse or a cow or a goat or sheep, they evolved to suppress outward signs. Because if they had done that in the wild, they would've been identified as easy prey. So, they're not going to show obvious signs of pain.

Host: That makes perfect sense. So like, evolutionarily speaking, even from way back, right? Even though there may be cows in a pasture, they don't just suddenly stop and go, "I'm going to scream now because I'm painful," right? So, I very much appreciate that feedback. You mentioned before that you're collaborating with, you know, scientists and human doctors. What does that look like for you? Obviously, I know that you mentioned we can help each other because those pain pathways are the same, but is this like a bunch of Zoom meetings? Like, are you going to Weill Cornell? How does this work?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah, great question. So, I can give a couple of examples. Things that are happening right now. So, one of the projects that I have going on is a basic science collaborative project with the pain research center at New York University in Manhattan. And what I essentially do is bring tissue samples that have been collected from dogs who have been donated to science after they've passed away. Their owners have—

Host: Thank you to those owners.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Thank you to the animals, to the owners. They are making tremendous, tremendous, advancements possible.

Host: Yes, absolutely.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yes. And so once they've passed on, we collect some tissue samples and they're taken down to the university. And then, you know, those samples undergo various tests. And what we're trying to determine is are there any new molecular pathways that we can focus on for the development of novel pain medications, new pain medications that might be more effective. And if we know that they work in dogs, then it's highly likely they're also going to work in people because we share, again, virtually identical nervous systems. So again, using dogs to help not only dogs, but people too, and other species eventually.

Host: Incredible.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: And then, another example would be a lot more research has been done on treatment, clinical treatment of various painful diseases in people. But if I have like a dog or a horse that has a similar problem, what I will do is reach out to the human anesthesiologist at the medical school and say, "Hey, if this was a person, what would you do?" And we talk about a treatment plan and we figure out what equipment and supplies we might need. And then, I'll perform that procedure in the animal, sometimes with their help, with their assistance.

Host: That's awesome. So, sometimes it's sending samples, sometimes it's consultations via the phone. And vice versa, it works that way too. I'm sure you get calls because maybe we see something more commonly in dogs or cats that maybe they only see once in a while in humans, and that kind of collaboration could save people from having a lot of pain, experiencing pain. That's amazing.

 Wow. That's really incredible. And so, I understand that apparently you've had your own journey with chronic pain. I'm like sad to ask this, but could you share with our audience, like what that's meant for you and how it kind of shaped you as a person doing this?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah. I'd love to actually. And you know, I neglected to bring that up when you asked about why I went into anesthesiology, I forgot to bring up the fact that a lot of it was my own journey with severe chronic pain. And I think if you are a person who has suffered from chronic, excruciating pain, you do tend to have kind of a different outlook toward what animals and your fellow humans go through.

And so yeah, I had a kind of an unusual condition called occipital neuralgia. And basically, what that means in simple terms is that there were some nerves in my neck that were inflamed essentially, and they would cause excruciating headaches. And I suffered with these headaches all throughout college, vet school residents.

Host: Oh, my gosh.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yeah, it was pretty bad. You know, it was pretty awful. And I finally found my way to a pain specialist. So, a human version of what I do. And he treated me with a very specific technique that they use in people for this procedure. It's called an interventional procedure. You brought up that word earlier. Basically, what it means is it's minimally invasive, so it's not surgery, but it's a minimally invasive procedure. They put a little needle in your neck, numb up your skin first so you don't feel the needle. And then, using advanced imaging technology, they position the needle next to the nerve and they treat it with radio waves. It's called radiofrequency ablation.

Host: Oh sure.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: And it causes the nerve to regenerate. And I will never be able to express my gratitude to my doctor for the pain relief that he provided doing this procedure. It was like a light switch was flipped off. I said to myself, "You know, I want to do this every single day for animals." And that was another big reason why I decided like this was the career for me because that relief that washes over you when you're not constantly in pain anymore is really indescribable. And that's what I love to do for animals.

Host: That's so neat. And I'm really sad to hear that you went through that. And have you had issues since, or we're you doing okay?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: No, I had to have it repeated once in like 15 years. But otherwise, I've been pain-free. It was life-changing.

Host: So, we can have these interventions that are just so impactful. And it's the same thing in our animals. And again, I can only imagine in people—and I'm married to someone who needed to see a pain specialist—and just being believed, if that makes sense, right? For people like just saying that. And then, for an animal who can't articulate it, but the owner knows something's wrong. But they also don't know. And then, the pain specialist can intervene and just make life-changing alterations, it's a lovely aspect of medicine, both veterinarian and humans. So I'm just so thankful and I'm thankful you're better.

 So after hearing that, are there any cool procedures or approaches you are working on now through the pain program that you're like, I'm going to share this with the world.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yes, I'm really eager. I hope that maybe there are some viewers, listeners who might have some pets that could use some of these procedures we're researching.

Host: Oh, I love this. Call out. General call out. Let's see.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Absolutely. Please contact me. So, the exact same procedure that I had done in my neck, we are developing that for dogs that have arthritis in certain joints in the body. So, you know, it takes a long time to develop these techniques. But right now, we're working most aggressively on the nerve that carries pain signals from the stifles or the equivalent of our knees. And so if you're out there and you have a dog who has really bad knees, it doesn't matter if they have, had, or will have surgery or not.

So, you know, if you can do surgery, that's terrific. You know, by all means, do that. Not everyone can afford the surgery for diseased knee joints in dogs, the cruciate ligament rupture, the same thing as the anterior cruciate ligament or ACL injury in people. Dogs get that .Surgery is ideal, but not everyone can afford it. This is a less invasive, cheaper option that just controls the pain. It doesn't fix the joint—

Host: It doesn't fix it.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Just controls the pain, owners. So please, if you have a dog, they may have had surgery. They may not. It doesn't matter. You can contact me if you think they're still hurting and we could talk about enrolling them in a trial.

Host: And by the way, everyone, even if they do have surgery, right, a lot of these dogs do end up having some arthritis. Maybe they're still lame. There are different types of surgeries out there sometimes that people can't do, something called a TPLO or TTA, I won't get into that, it involves bone plates, and they have another surgery, which by the way is better than no surgery. Like, you know, something to help kind of take the pressure off a ligament that's no longer functioning then. They still have a joint that's not normal. And so, they could still develop arthritis. So if you're listening and you have a dog that has had an injured knee, whether or not it was "fixed," we have a spot for you.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: We do. We also have other trials open for dogs with back pain, nerve pain in various parts of the body. So, you know, basically, if you do think that your pet is hurting, you know, do reach out to me and we can talk about whether I have something to offer or if a colleague of mine has something could be done.

Host: Side note, do they call you? Do they email you? Your info's on the Cornell Vet website.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: It sure is. Yeah. There's also the Comparative Pain website too, that you can—

Host: Okay.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: It's pretty easy to find. Great resource. Yeah. You can just hop on the Veterinary Hospital, Cornell University Hospital for Animals page, and you can get to the comparative pain page from there.

Host: Awesome. Very navigatable, I believe, you know. Oh, that's so cool. I'm like, "What do my dogs have?" I have a dog with some bad hips. I have a dog—We'll talk later. We'll talk later. So, I mentioned before pet parents sometimes—sometimes it's hard. You have a busy life, right? Maybe you work a lot. I travel. Maybe people have kids. Maybe people don't have kids and they have a cat, and cats sleep a lot. So, sometimes people struggle with finding pain in them. So for like our pet parents or for our young people who live at home with pets and maybe their parents are busy too, what are some signs that—let's just say maybe cats or dogs might show—because I can't get her on every species, everyone—might show that maybe are not obvious, right? Because we know crying may not happen and limping might give us a sign. But is there something more subtle that you might just let us know about?

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Essentially, what you want to look for, is there something that they used to be able to do when they were younger or before the problem started, that they now have trouble doing? That can indicate pain. It's not always pain, but it can indicate pain. So if your dog was able to bound right up the stairs at a younger age and now takes the stairs very slow, or maybe they used to be able to jump up on the bed really easily and now they're having trouble with that, or maybe they used to be able to chew dry kibble without a problem. And now, some of it's falling outta their mouth. That could point to dental pain. So, anything that they might not be able to do as easily as they used to, pain could be a possibility.

The other thing is not enjoying things that they used to enjoy. So if they had a favorite ball or a toy and they've stopped the enthusiasm for that toy, that walk, anything that they used to enjoy has waned a bit, it could be that—you know, again, it's not specific to pain, but there could be a pain component there and they should be evaluated for pain. And then, activities, like if we're talking about cats, things that cats do all the time. What do cats do? They groom themselves all the time. They tend to do like a good amount of jumping up on counters, on and off counters, things like that. If they're having difficulty with those things, then one of the rule-outs is pain. So, you know, it's an inability to do things that they once enjoyed or could do.

Host: Yeah. Much like me at basketball last night and then today versus 20 years ago. Very, very different, kids. Very different, right? And these signs can be subtle. You know, I watched my cat as he was aging, like attempt to jump, attempt to jump, attempt to jump. And then, he wouldn't jump. And I think some people might be like, "Oh, great, my cat's not on the counter anymore," but actually your cat used to be on the counter all the time. So, I appreciate that.

Or maybe your cat has some mats on its back now, and it never had mats because it was able to groom and reach there and now it can't reach, right? Or something like, your dog is licking its left elbow. And you're like, "That's so silly. Why is it licking its left elbow?" It's because it's left elbow hurts, right? So, no matter what. Always talk to your family veterinarian, right? Like general practitioner like me. And when we find things and we think it's really important, we've ruled out other things, we want to make sure nothing bad is going on, and then we can consult with a fabulous pain professional like Dr. Boesch. And so, I very much appreciate that perspective.

Whoa, oh, it's so interesting. Like, I could talk to her about this. I could talk to you about this for a long time because pain is so unique. Kids, everyone listening, like you can develop a pain sensation with even stuff that should be normal, like a feather on your skin. When I learned that in vet school, I was like, "Oh my God." It's got a fancy name. I won't get into it, but it is what bodies do when they perceive pain or don't perceive pain or how they distribute to the body. The intensity is just—there's so much out there. So, people like you are just so important in this space. And I mean that for animals and for humans, because it translates. So, thanks for that.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Thank you. It's true. There's some pretty horrific syndromes out there where sensations can be misinterpreted by the nervous system as pain. And animals get these things too. Animals, you know, we're beginning to realize, develop what appears to be phantom limb after amputation in some cases, which we—

Host: I just got a kitten with three legs. I'll keep you posted.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: You know, most of them most of the time do great, you know.

Host: Most of the time they're great.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Most of the time, amputation goes incredibly well, but we're finding this small subpopulation of amputees that appear to develop something similar to phantom limb in people. So, you know, we have so much to learn from our animal companions that, you know, can shed light on diseases and people.

Host: Yeah. Wow. So, you know, I know we talked about a lot of serious things. Your pain, the pain you try to alleviate in others and other species. So when you are not doing all of this, all of this pain stuff, what are you doing? Where are you? Are you on your couch? Are you on a hike? I hear people hearing they're going to hike.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Yes. I'm a big, big outdoorsy person. One of the reasons I love, you know, living in Ithaca, and I do have two dogs, so I'm outside as much as I possibly can. I enjoy all the natural beauty around here.

Host: That's true.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: I get outside as much as I can. You know, sometimes if it's nice out, like today, I'll take a little break at lunch, go down to the botanical gardens, even, you know, enjoy the campus. But yeah, I love the outdoors. So, I try to do that as much as possible in the, you know, limited, sunny and warm weather we do have here.

Host: Truth.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Everyone knows that there's a decent proportion of cold and rainy days here, so...

Host: Yes. Not to poo-poo nature, everyone. Guys, everyone get outside. Breathe some fresh air. You need it for your brains. You need it for your serenity. Take a moment. The Ithaca area has been going through—we went through a spring of deception. And now, we were like on winter number five. And we've had a rough, rough time. But today is actually a nice day. So, go do something. My listeners, I don't know how many I have, but some of my listeners have heard me say, I am outsidey not outdoorsy. So, I will stand by that.

Quick thing before we go, I like a little lightning round. Favorite snack.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Oh gosh. You know, I try to eat really healthy, but one thing I will never be able to do without is chocolate

Host: Oh yes. She's speaking my language folks. When you were like, "I try to eat healthy," I was like—

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Except for chocolate.

Host: Except. Hey, moderation. There is no good or bad foods, everyone. We eat everything in moderation.

Jordyn Boesch. Dr. Jordyn Boesch with lots of initials after her name for very good reason. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for telling our listeners all the great things you do. You heard it. If you have a dog that might have gone through surgery or not surgery or there's some other pain concerns that you have, you can always talk to your veterinarian. But go to the website, check out the comparative pain site at Cornell, the university hospital for animals, and they will get back to you. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. Ah, you're wonderful. Thank you everyone for listening.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: Large animals too by the way.

Host: That's right.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: We help with large animals too.

Host: Right. I wasn't kidding. I know I said like small, like a mouse to big rat, but she does like horses, right? Cows, goats, sheep. All these other animals. Like, we tend to think about cats and dogs, because I'm a small animal practitioner. But birds, you know, all sorts of different animals are involved here. So, thank you for helping all of them.

Jordyn M. Boesch, DVM: It's my pleasure to talk to you, my friend. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Host: Of course. All right. Everyone, like, subscribe. Tell your friends. We have some interesting people on this show. I didn't know her favorite, like little guilty pleasure of snacks was chocolate. So, come learn with me. Come back, listen to the next episode, listen to our older episodes. But until then, I will talk to you all soon. Thank you for joining me on the Cornell Veterinary Podcast.