Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Hi, I'm doctor Pam Peak, host of the Herb podcast. Welcome to our show. It's episode 483, closing in on 500 as we share the truth about her mind, her body, her life, and today, her vagina business. What? What is this? Oh my goodness gracious. See, I knew I got you at that. So it's going to be a great show and I know it's really going to hit you deeply. Ooh. Ooh. Before we begin, please know that this episode is sponsored by solar A vitamins. S o l a R A Y. These are vitamins, minerals and herbs rooted in nature. And they've got a special gift for women. The new award winning her life stages products. And these products support you all the way from your menstrual years through perimenopause, menopause and postmenopause. This is an integrative, holistic approach, having a woman's back throughout her entire life journey. To learn more about her life stages products, run on over to your local health food store. Check it This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. and when you do, use her as a promo, so it's h e r. And then at the same time you could run on over to Whole Foods. You can go to sprouts. It's everywhere, even on Amazon. So remember, we're talking about her life stages as the new products. And here's your first reminder to click onto iTunes to rate and review today's show. Because you know what we do? We wait around to hear your feedback. Want to know what you think about this pretty amazing episode that's coming on up. I'll give you another reminder later on. Okay, it's time for her. Her, the podcast, the naked truth about women, her mind, her body, her life. It's all about her. So one of the things I'm pretty much involved in, I wear many hats, is really looking at the whole issue of what we now call Femme, or feminine technology, femtech. And I've been very happy to, as a corporate, wearing my corporate hat, oversee some startups that have worked within the field of women's health, that have digital therapeutics, you know, to help manage hot flashes, for instance. And that's the, the number one in the world is Ember labs, their wave device using thermoregulation. There's also other really cool devices coming out. Some FDA approved as medical devices like bone health technology just came out with a vibration belt that basically stimulates bones to grow and to be able to help maintain bones of women who are losing bone mineral density. Usually after the age of 40, so all kinds of cool things. And then I stumble across this phenomenal book called, yeah, you got it, the vagina business. The innovative breakthroughs that could change everything in women's health and just came out. And the author is doctor Marina Gerner. And Marina is an award winning journalist who's written books about art, finance.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Just articles, not books. This is my first book.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Okay, so it's articles. All right. And your articles have appeared in the Economist, Financial Times, Wired, the Wall Street Journal, and more. And you've actually been hailed as a renaissance woman of the modern age as you bring a unique interdisciplinary perspective. And Maureen is also an adjunct professor at the New York University Stern School of Business and holds a PhD from the London School of Economics. And, oh, my gosh, what can I say? I mean, this is so cool because it's right up my alley. And I couldn't wait to talk to you. And I have your wonderful book here. So welcome, Marina, to our wonderful. Her podcast.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for the fabulous introduction. I'm very flattered.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Oh, you know, when you're reading these things, it's like, what? All right, now, Marina, what I always ask authors is, why did you write this? What prompted you to write it?

Marina Gerner, PhD: It all began about five years ago when I gained a new insight, which is that if I ask you to.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Imagine a person who's having a heart.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Attack, who do you see? You know, most of us.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): You can answer that.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Go ahead.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Well, you know, I mean, I'm a physician, so I'm in on the.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): You're in on it? Yes.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): You always think about a guy, you know, clutching his chest and whatever, and it brings back a memory. When I was in my internship, as I was in the hospital emergency room, and the telemetry went off and said, paramedics coming in with an MI, that's a myocardial infarction or a heart attack. And so there we were already in the exam bay and everything, and in came a man and a woman, right? And they immediately grabbed the guy and start ripping his clothes off. And he's going, no, no, it's not me. It's my wife. Meanwhile, they look over in the corner and the wife is like, slumping down, you know, the wall. You're like, what? Got that one wrong? So you're right. You're absolutely right. You think of a guy.

Marina Gerner, PhD: That's a brilliant example.

Marina Gerner, PhD: I think that's a great story. So most of us, yeah, we think of a guy. That's what we tend to see in movies. He's clutching his chest. He feels a lot of pressure on his chest.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): The pain is radiating down his left hand side.

Marina Gerner, PhD: But those are typically male symptoms. They're not the symptoms women tend to experience. And so we know a lot less about how to spot heart health issues in women. And as a result, women are 50% more likely than men to be given the wrong diagnosis after a heart attack. Women also wait longer to seek medical help, and that's because most medical research has focused on the male body, and.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So our knowledge has been formed by that. And so, I'm a journalist. I write about technology and business and a whole variety of things, as you have said. And I was super excited to come.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Across a company that was spun out of MIT that has created the coolest thing. They created a smart bra. So it uses ECG technology, and it.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Helps women who are at risk monitor their heart health. And it's also used in clinical trials so that women can be enrolled remotely.

Marina Gerner, PhD: To fill the gender data gap that we currently have in heart health. And I was amazed to come across this company, because not only did I.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Realize there's a huge problem, but there's also a solution.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And I love hearing and exploring and writing about solutions.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I saw the company a while back, and I actually, I believe at one of the femtech, maybe it was health, the big hlth meeting a couple years ago or so. I believe I met one of the founders, and it was just ridiculously cool. And the bras are kind of neat looking, too. They don't look like, you know, you're wearing some kind of AI, you know, equipment or something, but you know what I mean. They look cool.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Exactly. They told me they wanted to create a garment that a woman would actually want to wear.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And you've probably met Alicia Chong Rodriguez, the founder, who usually speaks on the stage.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Yes.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So she's the founder of Bloomer Tech.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And I was at a conference, which.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Is also where I met her. And I was in one of these.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Balcony seats further up.

Marina Gerner, PhD: I heard her speak, and I was so keen to get her business card. I ran down the stairs in the lunch break, and I said, please, can I write about you? Give me your business card. And then I reached out to all.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Of these editors I usually write for.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Who are usually really keen to commission.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): My stories, but somehow there was silence from them, and I think they thought it was a bit niche, and they.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Didn'T quite understand, you know, a smart bra for what?

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): These wouldn't happen to be all men that you were.

Marina Gerner, PhD: You've guessed it. Many of them are, absolutely. And this was also pre Covid. So I think something shifted during COVID.

Marina Gerner, PhD: I mean, many things did shift during COVID but initially at the start of the pandemic, I don't know if you.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Remember this, but men had worse symptoms, men were more affected that nowadays women.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Are more likely to have long Covid.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): But at the time men were more.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Affected and we didn't quite know why. And if you were to be cynical.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): You could say suddenly people started paying.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Attention to sex differences in health because men were more affected. And at that point I managed to.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Publish the story about the smart bra in the Guardian. And the story did really well.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And I was invited to chair a panel at a femtech conference, which was one of the first big female technology conferences organized by women of wearables.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And the panel I was chairing was.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Early in the morning, it was on data privacy and it was done. And I remember staying for all the other panels.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I was so fascinated by the topic.

Marina Gerner, PhD: I was immediately drawn into it, because.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): As a woman, you think you know.

Marina Gerner, PhD: About your body, but there's so much more to know.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): In reality, I expected to learn more about technology, but I was just sitting.

Marina Gerner, PhD: There learning about my body as well as learning about technology. So I was drawn into the topic by the smart bra. And then I had a more personal motivation as well. So I was in my early thirties at the time and I knew that I wanted to have children soon. And I also knew, and this is the kind of thing women talk about in hushed voices sometimes.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I knew that nine in ten first.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Time mothers end up with a birth injury. And it's the kind of thing where.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Some women talk about it, whereas others.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Say, oh, don't tell her, you don't.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Want to put her off, don't tell her.

Marina Gerner, PhD: But it is something I knew about, something I was keen to avoid. And I was very excited to come across a company called materna medical in California that has created a device that is a dilator that could potentially help us prevent birth injuries. So it stretches the muscles of the vaginal canal at the start of labour to make the muscles stretchy, as you would before working out, for example. And then right now they're in clinical trials, so they're not on the market yet. But the idea is to make it easier for the baby to then go through the vaginal canal and protect the.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Muscles without all of the tears that take place.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Exactly.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Without the tearing and without the need.

Marina Gerner, PhD: For an episiotomy as well. Which are these brutal procedures that are routinely done sometimes. And research has shown that tearing is actually better than having an episiotomy. So this device is very simple in many ways. It's a dilator, and dilators are used.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): In other situations, but in this case.

Marina Gerner, PhD: It could really help with vaginal tearing, and it could also help to prevent pelvic organ prolapse later on. So I was really excited to learn about this device.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And when I researched this space, I.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Realized that the last big innovation in the standard of care in the birth space was the epidural, which was popularized in the 1950s. And it just shocked me because there's no other field of technology where we take something that was created and popularized.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Such a long time ago, and we.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Say, look, this is great.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): This is the best thing we have for you.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And, yeah, the epidural is great, but why isn't there so much more?

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Why haven't we seen hundreds of new.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Creations in the birth space? Why are women still giving birth with.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Devices that can be described as salad forks and toilet plungers, forceps and vacuum delivery?

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Yeah, and I think that that's huge. There has been so little innovation all the way through. I mean, if you look at just menstrual cycles, the tampon was invented a million years ago.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yes, in 1931, I believe, is when the modern tampon was created.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): But there's been no innovation beyond that. The only thing that's really been happening are changes with menstrual cycles. So eliminating menstrual cycle to playing around with dosages on birth control pills and other. But honestly, just zip for innovation in a big way outside of pharmacology. So I think what you're saying is incredibly spot on. So you're talking about within the sphere of birth and that whole pregnancy type experience, and you're right, those tools and the equipment are ridiculously antiquated. There's got to be a better way.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Absolutely.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): There are many things that can be done remotely, for example, with the help.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Of technology, like the non stress test, you know, during a pregnancy, for example.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So all of this, I'm sure, inspired you to say, wait a minute, right?

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yes, it did. And there was a moment of anger I had, which is, I spoke to startup founders in the, let's call it the vagina centric space, and I heard.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): From them again and again that it's very hard to raise money in this.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Space because investors, as one vc investor put it, don't want to talk about.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Vaginas in their Monday morning partner meetings.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So you have a bunch of guys, because the vast majority of VC investors.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Are male and they are too embarrassed to talk about vaginas in front of their colleagues in a business setting.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And so for that reason, they don't invest in these kinds of companies. There are other reasons, but that's one of the reasons.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And it just took me to the core to learn that that is the.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Reason for why we don't get the innovation that we want and deserve. It's just mind boggling.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And so I wrote this story for Wired magazine called we need to talk.

Marina Gerner, PhD: About investors problem with vaginas. And the story went viral. And I was getting all these messages.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): From entrepreneurs, but also from some investors saying, I initially had this problem, but.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Then I got over it. And so I realized that I wanted to devote all of my energy to this topic. And I focused the next three years.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): On writing the book.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And I looked at all areas of femtech.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So not just birth and pregnancy, but also menopause and fertility and heart health and bone health and family focused technology and so on.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So my goal is to give people a really big overview of what's possible in that space.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I think your book definitely accomplished your goal. I mean, as you run through the different kinds of innovations that you told stories about. But you started everything with a very interesting question. And the question is, who are we to interfere with mother Nature? What you mean by that? It's like, you know, technology, you know, interfering with Mother Nature. And is Mother nature happy with all of this? So go for it. What did you mean by that question?

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah, absolutely.

Marina Gerner, PhD: I think it's something that comes up.

Marina Gerner, PhD: In the women's health space or in.

Marina Gerner, PhD: The pregnancy and birth space in particular, where people are happy to provide medical solutions to all other issues.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): But when it comes to female bodies.

Marina Gerner, PhD: They'Ll say, oh, who are we to.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Interfere with Mother Nature? You wouldn't say that when somebody needs.

Marina Gerner, PhD: A hip replacement or knee replacement or something else. But then when it comes to female bodies, there is this deep seated attitude that we shouldn't be interfering with Mother Nature, even though I would say that is our task. And I was wondering whether that goes back to the story of Eve and kind of Eve's curse and whether that's so culturally ingrained in people that we kind of resist the idea of intervening. But I think it's our job to turn Eve's curse into a blessing and to find solutions to seek out solutions, to invent new things so that women don't have to suffer in silence.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So perhaps the word isn't interfere. You know, the way I would look at it is we're here to support Mother Nature, right? So I would like to see it as, it's not that we're interfering. What we want to do, our goal, actually, is to find ways to be able to optimize that which Mother Nature has gifted us with, and then we can kind of run with it. What do you think?

Marina Gerner, PhD: I think that's a good way of putting it. I agree.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Okay, cool. And to your point about the investors and the rest of it, I've sat in so many investor meetings where the guys get glassy eyed and you get, well, there are a couple things. One is, there's the issue of women in general, right, with guys. So to them, they oftentimes will come up with some stereotypic vision in their mind of a woman who is, fill in the blank, pregnant, perimenopausal, menopausal, post menopausal. And they can't identify, other than having maybe some example from their life, you know, like, oh, she reminds me of my mother, or she, you know, that type of thing. And they're very uncomfortable with that. I think a lot of guys, number one. Number two, there's the whole issue of just understanding biology and physiology. Now, we're not asking venture capitalists and private equity guys and gals to understand every nuance about a woman's biology and physiology. That's not the goal. But it's like, just know enough to be dangerous, number one. And then I have also found, when you show them the metrics, that 6000 women are entering menopause every single day in the United States, that 75% of them suffer in silence, that they're not getting anywhere near what they need, that they're paying at minimum, $3,000, at minimum $3,000 per year out of their pocket to find solutions, as we say in the financial world, follow the money. Hello. Now do I have your attention? And here's this new innovation that will improve XYZ within the femtech world. I think that it's beginning to slowly but surely seep into that. The other piece is really looking at the emergence of more women partners in venture capital and private equity who are aging in. So you can guarantee yourself they're not 30. More than likely, they're 50 ish, right. Plus or minus or older. And so most of them will immediately get it because they're living it, but we don't have enough of them. It's definitely changing, though, if you look at the people who, the partners and associates who are now involved in venture capital and the rest of it. So I want to kind of move over to this part two in your book, which is woman centric design.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah. Can I just comment on what you've said? Because I had some thoughts on that. Yeah.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Oh, great.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah, I had some thoughts, as you were speaking. The first point you made is that investors tend to think of a certain person that they know, and that's certainly something I've been hearing from founders as.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Well, that they talk about their product.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And then investors will say, oh, let.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Me go home and ask my wife. And then if the wife doesn't have the issue, they dismiss the issue, even though, well, first of all, maybe your wife isn't telling you. And then, second of all, you wouldn't.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Make a business decision usually in any other space based on one person as.

Marina Gerner, PhD: A case study, you would at least.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Try to get a sense of statistics.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And data, as you have said.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So that's an interesting and a very unique stumbling block, I think, in the.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Femtech industry is that, on the one hand, investors might say, oh, let me go and ask my wife.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): On the other hand, if they do.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Know someone who's struggling with fertility, for example, their sister or whoever else, then that can also help inspire them into the space.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): But on the other hand, it's a.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Shame that women need to have that. Femtech entrepreneurs need to have that element of relatability, because in other spaces, you don't necessarily need to be relatable on a personal level. You just have to have a good business case. And as you said, people just follow the money, right? So that's something femtech entrepreneurs tend to lean on. They tend to present their case in a data based way.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And that's one of the success strategies.

Marina Gerner, PhD: That I've written down.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): It's happened so many times with groups I have worked with as well, and that is, they'll immediately say, let me see what, you know, send the device over to my home and let me see what my wife said, oh, great, an n of one. And meanwhile, you're describing studies with an n of 200 or 2000, and all they can say is, let me see what my wife thinks. Now, I think one of the main reasons why that occurs is they just lack the information themselves. They're not knowledgeable about this, and so they depend upon their wife or sister or somebody to chime in and give them a little input. And that input could be highly influential if the answer is, I have absolutely no problem. And then to your point, they may not be saying anything, then you've got a problem one way or the other.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And typically, investors tend to have advisors.

Marina Gerner, PhD: As well, so it wouldn't be that difficult to find a gynecologist or an expert, if you're not the subject expert.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): To then advise you on the subject.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And so I have a whole chapter on investment in the space, and there.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Are lots of new funds that were.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Specifically set up to invest in Femtech. But I think it's really important for us to get more generalist investors involved as well. So I interview a female investor who's at a general fund, and also a guy who's at a general fund, and I talk to them about how they got into femtech investing, because I think we can't wait for these relatively small funds to get bigger. We need to get everybody on board.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): To really channel money into the space.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I know. And again, we're in the very, very early stages of being able to muster up this kind of money. So it's wonderful to see large companies begin to really understand that there's a need here. So, better being is the largest vitamin supplement company in the United States, based in Salt Lake City, and they make all kinds of phenomenal supplements. Solaray, of course, is our primary sponsor for the. Her podcast. And one of the things that I found was amazing about them is that they opened up their hearts and their minds, and they created this. Her life stages products line never existed before. There had never been, like, a line that basically looked at every single stage, a hormonal stage in a woman's life, from the menstrual years, including PM's, perimenopause, menopause, post menopause. It was like a massive innovation, and it started winning awards, especially for perimenopause, a word that didn't even exist before, just because we're starting to acknowledge all of this. And so when Solaray, one of their biggest brand, launched her life stages this year, my heart was warmed by the fact that, yes, a large company and their leadership really understood and is pushing this forward. It made me feel very hopeful about other companies and within everything from femtech on. So there is some hope in the horizon. Going again to part two, which is the woman centric design. I'm looking at this, and I'm saying, you bring up such great points. So, for instance, you've looked at fertility, for sure, no question about that. But the other thing that you bring up, which I think is incredibly important here, is ageism meets sexism. I think that. That's huge, because one of the things that happens is that if you think we're uncomfortable about women, what about aging? Women just kind of adds an extra layer to this whole thing, which I don't believe exists in the same way for men.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Well, yeah, absolutely.

Marina Gerner, PhD: As we see in politics, for example, with men who are really quite old.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Being in the most senior positions, whereas.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Men, whereas women who are on tv, for example, tend to just disappear at a certain point in their career. And when you look at menopause from a femtech perspective, it's quite clear that it's probably the biggest market there is, just in terms of demographics and in terms of the potential target population of perimenopausal and menopausal women and their potential to spend money on solutions. So when I was thinking about it, I strongly felt that this space is basically where sexism and ageism meet.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And then what's the solution? I mean, you're like, whoa. As a physician and as a clinical investigator, sometimes what you find yourself doing is trying to tease apart what's happening here as a woman's body changes. There are definite age related issues, right. That I don't care who you are, you're going to experience. One of them is, for instance, once you hit your sixties, there's a loss of muscle. Now, I don't care if you're a master's Olympian or somebody who lives on a couch, it's going to happen. It's just the master's olympian person going to drop some muscle mass, no question. Right? But if you've already banked a lot of muscle, then the drop is not going to be consequential outside of olympic records or master's levels or something. Obviously, it's going to be consequential there. But for your functional daily life, no, but that's age related. Now, we add on to that whether or not you're on estrogen, whether or not you're on any kind of menopausal hormonal therapy, which is what we now call it, instead of hormonal replacement. So, boom, you're just crashing into one another. You've got menopausal changes, you've got the aging thing going on, and then on top of that, you've got sexism. So you've got all of this happening, and what have you found in this space?

Marina Gerner, PhD: Oh, a huge amount. There's a huge amount of innovation. So one of the companies I wrote about is Amber Labs, which you have already mentioned. They have created a bracelet that can help women deal with hot flashes. And they've done a small study to.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Show that it also helps women sleep.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Better at night when they can control the hot flashes to some extent. And the other company I wrote about is the osteoboost. So that's bone health technologies to help women preserve their bone density. And then there are several companies focused.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): On vaginal dryness as well. So there's Madora, for example, and Joylux.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And Madora is a medical device. It's not on the market yet.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): It's an external device that helps with vaginal dryness. And Joylux is a consumer tech device.

Marina Gerner, PhD: That is an insert that helps with vaginal dryness.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): So I'm going to tell you a story. I've been involved with both Ember labs. I actually ran the studies, and so I know about it. But here's the funny thing. When I came on board as their chief medical officer, and my main job was to run the validation trials, this is a great. This is a great thing. So I looked at them all, and they were, like, bemoaning the fact that, gosh, funding is just hell, and try to be so innovative. And I say, kudos to the ember board for being major investors here and being such early adopters and so visionary. But one of the first things out of my mouth was this. I said to Liz, who is the CEO, Liz Gozda. I said, no one's going to pay attention to this unless it involves men. And she said, yes, indeed. And I said, well, I got really good news for you. And she said, well, what? And I said, it does. It's called prostate cancer. And so, turns out men who are undergoing prostate cancer therapy typically have something incredibly unusual. And that's menopausal symptoms. How weird is that? And of course, a man having a hot flash is like the weirdest thing on the planet. Very difficult to endure. So I decided, okay, so I put together with this wonderful team. The whole ember team was involved with this one. I just, you know, seeded this and put this protocol together with just brilliant people. And we executed this during COVID virtually. We just shipped out the ember wave, as you say, bracelets. And this has now been published in nature. And what we were able to find was, indeed, the guys did quite well on that. But here's the funny part. When we brought this up to, you know, investors, all of a sudden, the guys just woke up and they went, whoa, wait a minute. What? It involves men? Are you kidding me? And the Milken Institute and all the guy places that were looking at prostate cancer were suddenly like, what? I'm awake now. You got me at prostate cancer, which is the number one cancer in men, one out of eight men, same as women for breast cancer, one out of eight women. So that's a sneaky way to kind of get the product through the front door. You lead with men. It's crazy, but it kind of works for the osteoboost, which is the vibrating belt, which is very much like what happened with NASA astronauts when they found that they were losing so much bone mineral density. And they used vibration, which, by the way, we all do. Take a walk right now. And for every step you take, you vibrate. And when you vibrate, you stimulate these cells in your bones to continually build bone and rebuild and keep it going. And so this is a different kind of device. It was just cleared by the FDA in January. So it's a medical device, class two, and it will be for men and women, but obviously, women are much more impacted earlier. And so I'm so glad that you looked at both of the companies, because, again, what's interesting is not only did nobody care about bone health, it's like the poor little neglected, forgotten organ, but it involved women. So it was sort of like a double slap in the face.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's that 80% of people.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): With osteoporosis in the US are women. So it's really huge.

Marina Gerner, PhD: It's a brilliant story.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): The one about the prostate, isn't that fabulous?

Marina Gerner, PhD: It really is. Yes. Elizabeth Gasta, actually, the CEO of Amberlabs.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): She mentioned that study to me, and.

Marina Gerner, PhD: It'S great to hear that you came up with that.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): We all talked about it together. It's always, it takes a village, and it was the whole team at Ember that got together and really made this thing work. But, you know, it's that kind of thing. So what I'm really saying to people out there who are thinking about being, you know, an innovator and an entrepreneur within femtech is you have to be stealthful and think this through carefully. And I also say, just like Stephen Covey, the famous, you know, guy who really coined the seven habits of highly effective people, one of the things he said that I just can't get out of my mind is think with the end in sight, where do you really want this to go? Right? Who is your big audience here? And then start working strategies to be able to make that happen. Right. So that's one of the reasons why I'm so glad you wrote this. Book, because the stories really illustrate the challenges and also some very wonderful solutions and ways to navigate around so much of this. So are you at this point in time, after having written the book, are you hopeful?

Marina Gerner, PhD: I am, absolutely. But I'm also the kind of person.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Who'S energized by solutions. I read a lot of feminist literature, and it's so important to know about.

Marina Gerner, PhD: The problems and the gender data gaps.

Marina Gerner, PhD: That exist, but I'm just much more.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Energized by reading about solutions as well.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So I knew that I wanted to write a book of solutions, basically. And I've interviewed overdose, 100 femtech entrepreneurs, investors, and researchers to shine a massive spotlight on their work and on the.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Progress that's already being made.

Marina Gerner, PhD: But obviously, there's still a long way to go and so much more that.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Needs to be done.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I think right now, we're only at the beginning of this movement and of this shift.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Yeah. Many people have never even heard the term femtech. And you ended this book with a very interesting question. You keep asking these awesome questions. Right. What if Femtech wins?

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yes.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): What did you mean by that? Why were you so compelling?

Marina Gerner, PhD: There's an essay by Gloria Steinem called.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): What if feminism wins?

Marina Gerner, PhD: And I was sort of reflecting on that essay, and I also very briefly.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Managed to meet her while I was writing this book. So she's in the book as well.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And our conversation about the book is in the book, which was an incredible, incredible opportunity. So when I was reflecting in all.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): The stories that I had collected, I.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Wanted to finish on a chapter that would be a utopian vision of what could be possible if femtech wins and if we take women's health seriously. And so I wanted to imagine what that would look like. And it would include, for example, that medical professionals are trained in all the contraceptive options and women specific health issues and menopause and sexual health. And that women no longer experience delayed.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Diagnosis across 770 diseases. And that all medical professionals pride themselves on making women feel comfortable and heard. And that we know exactly how to.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Diagnose and treat endometriosis and pcos and fibroids in the best possible ways. That our contraceptives no longer have side effects. And that investors compete with each other to invest in menopause companies because they're proud to have those companies in their portfolios, and that giving birth is safe for absolutely everyone.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): That when talking about birth, nobody would dream of saying, you have to leave.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Your dignity at the door, and that.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Birth is appreciated as the great achievement that it is that no woman is.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Pressured into or denied an epidural or a c section or any procedure of her choice for financial or cultural reasons. It'd be great if period products are available for free in bathrooms, just like toilet paper, and that no period product, and actually no other femtech product ever.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Is made to become landfill. So, ideally, everything would be sustainable and biodegradable as well, and that all the ingredients are transparent and have been tested and are safe.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So, we were talking about tampons earlier and how the first modern tampon was created 90 years ago.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And we've only just now had the first study looking into metals that are contained in tampons.

Marina Gerner, PhD: And that doesn't just apply to tampons, it applies to other period products. But there's so little testing that has been done on them, and it's just an absolute disgrace. So I think we need much better guidelines around that. I also said that sex education needs.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): To include sexual pleasure as a central.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Theme, because that's really important to our overall health. And I want everybody to be able to draw a clitoris.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I write about how we have penis.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Doodles all over the world in public bathrooms, but nobody knows how to draw.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): A clitoris, and I think that's very telling. So that would be something I would like to see.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): And those penises are always about three times the normal length because they're written by men. I'm just throwing it out there. I'm just the messenger here. Okay. And finally, remember the pink tax. And that is, for whatever reason, women's hygiene products costs so much more than men's. There's a real difference. And, you know, like, why are we paying more when guys stuff is cheap as heck? And so we need to get rid of the pink tax, as it were, and shore up those prices and all the rest of it. All right, so, as we bring this wonderful episode to a conclusion, what's your last little statement you'd like to make to the Herb podcast audience? A message from the book from you. You know, to be able to perhaps impart some wisdom, some hope.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Yeah, there's so much I could say. So, the first review of the book came out recently. It was written by Kirkus Reviews, and they said the book helps us redefine the archetype of female entrepreneurship and that it offers hope for positive new ways of not only thinking and talking about.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Female bodies, but also how to improve health outcomes for women worldwide.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So I was really proud to read their words, because that was exactly my goal. And what I would say to listeners.

Marina Gerner, PhD: As well, is if you're reading the.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Book, it has the vagina business on the title. Don't be scared.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Don't be embarrassed. Read it on the train, read it.

Marina Gerner, PhD: On the plane, read it in the boardroom, and, you know, show off the COVID so that other people can get.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): Used to the word as well and.

Marina Gerner, PhD: So that other people can follow your lead.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): I'd say just walk around with the damn thing and just let everyone see it. It's got a beautiful cover. Oh, my gosh. Show everybody the COVID here. Oh, what is it? It's got hot pinks and it's got some orange there with the black and, ooh, there's something in the middle that looks like a. Oh, no. Could it be it's not a penis. It's the other one. Oh, my gosh. You know something, Marina? We can't thank you enough for being on the Herb podcast. Everyone. We've been talking to doctor Marina Gurner, and her book is the vagina business. The innovative breakthroughs that could change everything in women's health and has just came out. I would highly recommend it. It's very easy to read and it's kind of an eye opener, especially for women who are really interested in bringing many of their own ideas and innovations to life. So thank you so much, Marina, for being on the her podcast.

Marina Gerner, PhD: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you so much for your kind words.

Pam Peeke, MD (Host): All right, here we go. So everyone run on over to itunes right now. Rate and review this terrific episode, because I want to hear your feedback, that's why. And here's another shout out to our sponsor, Solaray. S o l a r a y. These are the herbs and vitamins and minerals rooted in nature. Remember the her life stages products that cover a woman's hormonal journey all the way from her menstrual years through post menopause. And that's what this whole episode has been about. More innovation in this field. So hooray to Solaray. Oh, my gosh. I'm starting to rhyme. I'm scaring myself now. But go on over to solaray.com and absolutely check out the her life products because you know that you need this. What stage are you in? All right, so this has been another amazing her podcast. I'm Doctor Pam Peak, your host, and I want to thank each and every one of you for listening in and being such an important part of our her podcast community. So pop on over to drpeak.com, learn more about my work and social media and join me every single week for another her podcast where you're going to hear from extraordinary, entertaining and engaging thought leaders like Doctor Marina Gurner as we share our wit and wisdom for you to enjoy. So thanks so much. And remember that oh my goodness, your time in this world may be limited. Yep, it is. But the things you can do with that time are not. So get on out there and carp Adm. Seize the day. Have a great one.