Amanda Wilde (Host): Welcome to Recovery Unscripted, the Haymarket Center Podcast, where we have meaningful conversations focused on the integration of substance use disorder, mental health, and primary care treatment. I'm amanda Wilde with Dr. Dan Lustig, President and CEO Haymarket Center. Hello, Dr. Lustig. Welcome back.

Dan Lustig: Good morning. Glad to be here. Thank you, Amanda.

Host: This is an exciting episode because we have two remarkable guests joining us today. First, we'll hear from actress, author, health expert, Mariel Hemingway. She will be the keynote speaker at Haymarket Center's Annual Gala on April 24th. And then, we'll be joined by an inspiring individual, James Ivy, a former patient who is now a clinical program supervisor at Haymarket Center. A friend of yours, Dr. Lustig as well, right?

Dan Lustig: That is it. And Amanda, we're really excited because this podcast is going to give us an exciting preview of what's to come on April 24th. We are really honored to have Mariel join us. She has passion, she has knowledge, and she has experience of all the things we'll be covering at the Gala. So, very excited to have her.

And James, James is one of our success stories that we're really excited to have. He's come a long way and is doing tremendous work at the center. We are better because of him. So, thank you and we're excited.

Host: I am looking forward to these conversations. And it is my great privilege now to bring in and welcome Mariel Hemingway. Mariel, thank you so much for taking the time to join us.

Mariel Hemingway: Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about this Gala on April 24th. That's going to be a lot of fun. Yeah, this is my passion. And so, I'm in my wheelhouse right now.

Host: Yes. And the theme of the upcoming Haymarket Gala is the Strength To Transform. Mariel, you're a longtime advocate of personal power, so I'm wondering how that theme speaks to you. Would you be willing to share just a sneak peek of your gala keynote?

Mariel Hemingway: I mean, I never actually know what I'm going to say, and don't get nervous because I still have a lot to talk about. But I really like to go into a room and really feel the people that are there and listen to the stories. I mean, I'm sure James Ivy's story will inspire me on the evening. But really, transformation for me is about being very, very aware mentally, physically, emotionally, and even connected spiritually. I mean, I don't have to go into that. But those things, it's so much about lifestyle; how can we integrate how we're living our everyday life so that we can create better mental health environments for ourselves?

Because mental health is not you know, a brain problem, it's a body, mind, and brain. And it's all interconnected. And I think that for a lot of—not Haymarket. Haymarket is very in tune with what works from every aspect of the body, mind, spirit. But most people have this disconnection, thinking that we are not integrated. Because our bodies really tell the story of what our mind is getting overobsessed with, right? So, we've created neural pathways that we can't get out of. So, transformation is about shifting lifestyle choices so that you are making choices that are healthy for your body, that are in alignment with your body. And therefore, your brain just follows.

So, you know, I speak about my family history. I come from seven suicides. I have schizophrenia in my family, bipolar disorder. I'm sure that my grandfather probably had bipolar, would've been diagnosed bipolar back in the day, you know, and he used alcohol to self-medicate. So, I have compassion for everybody's journey. But I think we have to have a real honest and frank discussion about the fact that we do these things because there is pain inside, right? And when you're dealing with pain, you do things that, honestly, we're very judgmental of, but you have to understand the story behind it, the trauma that causes us to go down that survival path.

Host: You have dealt with a family legacy of substance use disorder and mental health issues as you've mentioned. Do you have any advice you'd like to share for families supporting loved ones during their recovery journey?

Mariel Hemingway: That's a very interesting conversation too, because sometimes it's the people that are in support of the people that are struggling or in recovery, and they feel kind of invisible. They feel like, "Oh, what do I do?"—you know? And their mental health needs to be taken care of because it's a very difficult thing to support somebody who is in that kind of challenge. I'm not saying that the person in recovery isn't going through a lot, but the person who's supporting you also is struggling with their own ability to handle a situation. So, it's a community effort. I think, when we decide that, we're going to join—you know, we've got Haymarket, we've got these different people that we can join hands with, and you realize that you're not alone, that's the most important thing for somebody who's really dealing with the heaviness of watching their loved one go through something like this.

Host: I just can't wait to hear more of your keynote address on April 24th. Mariel Hemingway, thank you so much for helping inspire individuals who are going through recovery and shining a light on the critical support their families need as well.

Mariel Hemingway: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's tremendous. So, I'm excited.

Dan Lustig: Mariel, I also want to thank you so much because I think it's stories like yours that truly offer hope to families and individuals who are going through substance use disorders and mental illness. This is why at Haymarket Center we set forth kind of these like galas for people in your position to really see that there is help available, and that treatment works as long as you get it when you need it.

And I just want to also thank you because you are right spot on, the complexity of this medical disorder is something that frustrates families and individuals that really impact the way that they receive treatment. So, we're really excited to have you on April 24th, and I can't wait to see you and meet you in-person.

Mariel Hemingway: Oh, awesome. I'm excited as well. Thank you so much for having me.

Dan Lustig: Thank you.

Host: Am sure we all want to hear more from Mariel Hemingway, so you'll have to go to haymarketcenter.org/gala to get your tickets for the fundraiser April 24th at the Hilton Chicago. Mariel Hemingway, thank you so much. We look forward to seeing you there.

Mariel Hemingway: Thank you.

Dan Lustig: Thank you.

Host: Well, that was so exciting to have some time with Mariel Hemingway. Dr. Lustig, why are stories like Mariel's so important to share?

Dan Lustig: That's a great question, Amanda, because most people don't have anybody in their lives or see anybody who has been successful at treatment, or that treatment impacts just homeless people. Why Haymarket Center set out this journey is that substance use disorders impact everyone. It can impact a homeless person or it can impact a movie star. And the sad thing this year is that I think we've seen too many people with wealth and money and stardom really succumb to the effects substance use disorder. So, we're really trying to spread that message that treatment is available, treatment works, and that treatment on demand is one of the most important aspects of addressing this medical disease.

Host: It was really valuable hearing Mariel's perspective and knowing what you said, having that example of this crosses through all kinds of people, cultures, economics. Our next guest is also speaking at the Gala, and he's someone you know well, Dr. Lustig. He's a colleague of yours now and a former patient, and his name is James Ivy. Can you help introduce James since you know him so well?

Dan Lustig: It's my pleasure. You know, James's success story is going to be highlighted at this year's gala. And you are really going to be able to see how not only does treatment work, but when someone finally gets a period of treatment underneath them, how they begin to have a building blocks of really improving their lives.

And James is a perfect example of, A, living life on life's terms, but also really enjoying what he can bring to a situation. He went back to school, he got an education, he really honed his skills. So, he's able to offer patient's a unique perspective that not only treatment works, but look at how effective it was for me. So, he really is a beacon for so many of our patients and is an added value staff to the center.

Host: That's incredible. James Ivy, thank you for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

James Ivy: Thanks for having me, Amanda, it is a pleasure to be here.

Host: James, tell us a bit about your struggles with substance use disorder.

James Ivy: Sure. Amanda, when it comes to my struggles with substance abuse, one of the ways that I got introduced to different substances was in my neighborhood that I grew up in, drugs and alcohol was frequented there. I had family members that tried to keep me away from it, but as a result of me seeing it on a daily basis, I end up using.

First, I started with alcohol. Alcohol was the first substance that I had. And from the first time I drank alcohol, I was off and running. One of the things that it did for me was it helped me deal with the insecurities of being a kid, and it also helped me deal with some of the traumas that I was dealing with. Once I started using the alcohol, I started using it daily. And then, I gained a tolerance for it, I started smoking marijuana. As a result of me constantly smoking marijuana on a daily basis, what ended up happening was I gained a tolerance for that and I started lacing marijuana with cocaine.

Right away, I started getting the negative consequences that come along with using drugs and alcohol. One of the things that it did to me was, in the field, we say it's progressive fatal, and incurable. Being somebody that's familiar with it, it reduced me to animalistic levels. I remember all the core values and things that I was taught by my mom, how I was raised, all of that went out the window. It was like going into another world. It was like the drugs became the alcohol and I became the master.

As a result of that, I ended up being homeless. I remember my mother always owned property, but it was something about me using the drugs and alcohol being driven by something where I lost my freedom of choice. It was like I was in the prison in my own mind. As a result of that, I started committing crimes. I ended up catching 13 felony convictions as a result of my substance use. One of the things that I found out, all of my drug cases—I never had any drug cases—but the cases that I had was as a result of me using the drugs and alcohol. It got to the point where things got so bad that I felt better in jail than out of jail I couldn't understand understand why I couldn't stop. I couldn't understand when I was seeing the hurt on my family members' faces, seeing that I was hurting my kids, I couldn't stop. It wasn't until I got—I think it was like the third bit where I ended up in jail, where I ended up starting to see that I had a problem with drugs and alcohol.

Host: You were really spiraling. It sounds like alcohol helped the pain in the beginning, became a prison, and then you were actually in jail for committing actual crimes driven by substance use. When did you know it was finally time to get help? And what brought you to Haymarket Center?

James Ivy: That's a great question, Amanda. It was when I hit my bottom. The bottom for me was my mom bringing my son into the crack house saying, "There goes your dad, he's nothing but a crack head. Nobody has your back. You got to do it yourself." It wasn't what my son said because he still had a respect for me, I remember I read his lips when he said, "My dad's an alcoholic, an addict," It was the way that he looked at me. It was that feeling of hopelessness and despair. It was like using the drugs and alcohol, I would always try to rationalize and justify the negative consequences. But it was at that point I couldn't lie to myself anymore. I was faced with the full-blown fact that I was a full blown alcoholic and drug addict.

And I remember the way my son looked at me, the way he looked at me was the way that the people would look at me when I ended up at the gas station begging for change, looking at me like I was less than a human. The way that he looked at me was the way that the judge looked at me when she said, "Hey, Mr. Ivy, you've just been released 72 hours ago and you are back in our courtroom again." It was the way that my son looked at me that made me come to the realization that I have a problem with drugs and alcohol, and I needed help.

Host: That is incredibly intense. And what brought you to Haymarket Center for help?

James Ivy: Well, like I was explaining in the last question, and I was faced with my full-blown addiction, it was at that point that I knew I had a problem. That's when I called my brother. My brother was a counselor here at Haymarket. And I remember when I called them, I called my mom to pray for me, and my brother was taking care of my mom at that time. And my mom said, "Hey, your brother just came in the house. Why don't you talk to him?" And I remember when I talked to my brother, I was telling him I need help. So, he asked me, he said, "Just meet me tomorrow at the gas station on Roosevelt in Ogden, where you be at, and I'll come and give you some help."

What happened was the next morning when he came into the gas station to meet me, he was sitting there and he looked at me and he said, "Man, you want some help? I'm going to take you to my job." And I remember he took me and we came to Haymarket. And I remember we were on public transportation at that time. So when we got to Morgan, we was walking down to Sangamon and I was going through severe withdrawals, and I remember when we got to Sangamon by the tunnel of Haymarket, he told me, he said, "The detox is right there at that door."

And I remember when I was walking to the door, I stopped and I looked at him and I said, "Man, can you do me a favor? I'm sick. Can you help me to the door?" And my brother looked at me. He said, "You bought your own drink. You bought your own bag. You need to take your own walk." And I remember taking those 37 steps to that Haymarket door. I remember going through the severe withdrawal, the irritability, the restlessness. I remember the pain that I felt while walking. My feet were sore. I remember I felt like I was about to vomit. I felt nauseous. And I remember when I made it to the Haymarket door. And I remember going inside and that's why my journey began. I remember that I did detox, I stayed in detox, then I went to the medical detox. And then, I went upstairs to the 28-day program. And the 28-day program is where I really got the help that I needed.

And I can honestly say it was the way that the staff treated me that I was here. Because my disease isolated me and made me feel like no one understood me. At the end of the road for me, I remember I thought I had a mental deficiency. It wasn't until I came to Haymarket and started getting educated on what the true nature of the disease was. I remember being somebody up on a 28-day program here where I'm the clinical supervisor today, I remember the trauma that I went through. That's where I found out standing at the back gas station begging for change is traumatizing. Sleeping in abandoned building with animals is traumatizing. Not being able to say what you will or what you would not do is traumatizing.

When I first came to this program, I thought I had a mental deficiency. But through the education of the staff, hearing the treatment that I got, I was able to understand that it was a disease. So, every problem that I came here with as a result of my substance abuse issues, Haymarket had treatment for that trauma from sexual abuse that I experienced, trauma from grief and loss issues. I was able to get all the help that I needed in one setting of treatment.

Host: Dr. Lustig, I want to bring in your perspective what James just shared about the traumas he suffered and the difficulty of walking those 37 steps to get to the door to get help. How does that story resonate with you in terms of the many patients that come to Haymarket Center for help?

Dan Lustig: When you hear James's story, you really hear the fear that those 37 steps represent, the client perspective. That very first 37 steps or five steps or 10 steps to get help can be very traumatizing itself. But at Haymarket Center, we treat substance use disorders the way it's supposed to be treated—as a medical condition. And we want our patients to stay connected to Haymarket Center like James did so that we can offer the support or the right dosage of treatment until a person reaches a period of sustained recovery of at least a year or longer.

So, we take a real hard look, a comprehensive look at each patient walking through our door, making sure that we provide a comprehensive treatment plan to start this journey because it is a scary journey for each and every patient. And I think what you hear very clearly, James just doesn't bring clinical skills to the patient, he brings his own history and his own support to each and every client. And I think that's just what you see when you come to Haymarket Center.

Host: Well, James, you spoke a bit about what it was like being a patient at Haymarket Center and how that changed your perspective. When did you know you wanted to devote your life to helping others with substance use disorder?

James Ivy: One of the things that I'm grateful for here at Haymarket Center and the programs they have, one of the programs that I attended was Family Enrichment Program, and that's when I got back into the job we're seeing. The Family Enrichment Program was a program that showed me how to utilize the skills that I used when I was using drugs and alcohol and finding ways and means to get the substance to flip the script on it and utilize it to be able to be a successful employee.

 First, I started out here as a custodian maintenance guy. And what I did was I went around to clean the offices and I would clean the areas that needed to be cleaned at the Haymarket Center. And one of the things that happened, I remember cleaning out the office for my boss, Jesse Taylor. And I ran across the book written by Father Mac. And one of the sayings in there that caught my attention was when he said that when we stop burning with love, others are dying in the cold. Being someone who's working with the 12-step model, I relate that to the only way to keep it is to give it away.

And I remember, I worked my way from custodian maintenance to community service aid to case aide to case manager to head counselor to recovery coach. And I remember when I was a case aide, I was taking the guys out on a smoke break. And one of the guys stormed out of detox. He was like, "Man, I can't do this." He was talking to himself, "Man, I can't do this. This is worthless." And I remember I stopped and I looked at him and I told him, I said, "Man, you can do this, man." I said, "If you put your mind to it, you can do it." And he looked at me, he said, "What do you know? you never ate out the garbage can. You never been homeless. You don't know what it's like for people to look at you like you're less than an animal." And I looked at him and I'm saying to myself, "How dare you take my substance abuse history or experience away from me?" And I was able to explain to him, "I know what it's like to be behind a fastfood back dumpster with a crack pipe to smoke, with one lighter for the striker, one lighter for the flicker and callouses on your hand. I know what it's like to have that feeling of hopelessness. I know what it's like to contemplate suicide. I know what it's like to feel like you're less than." And he looked at me and he said, "Man, you don't look like you was there." And it was at that point that I realized, I said, "I used to stand at the gas station to beg for change and try to convince people that I wasn't going to use the money to buy substance with. And as a result of me being at Haymarket and utilizing the skills that they taught me, now I got to convince someone that I was using."

And I remember like a week later, the person was in treatment and he was like, "A lot of this stuff in treatment, man, I understand. But it was the way that you broke it down to me, man, that let me know something about me knowing that you did it, that gives me the light that I can do it." So, it is not only the education, those associates, the bachelors, the masters, the LPC that got me, that's not it. It's the experience. My lived experience and learned experience, I start seeing where I will be able to utilize my misery and turn my misery to help someone else suffering from the same situation that I'm suffering from.

Host: So, that's one of the ways your personal experience has impacted the way you help patients through your work. Because now as clinical program supervisor, you are helping patients go through the same treatment you went through. Dr. Lustig, how do you see that? How does trauma-informed care contribute to better treatment outcomes for patients with substance use disorder?

Dan Lustig: Amanda, we actually treat the whole person. So many of our clients come to Haymarket Center with a profound trauma history. And when you look at all of our residential programs, each and every residential program has an evidence-based intervention attached to it. And an evidence-based intervention really speaks. It improves one's outcomes in treatment. Trauma and our trauma interventions are one of those evidence-based programs that we have that run throughout our program.

Having a substance use disorder is traumatic. It is traumatic to the individual. It is traumatic to the family and friends around them. And that's why it's not just the individual programming we have, but we also have family-based programming, because a substance use disorder is a family disease. It's not just the disease of the patient.

Host: James, if there was one more thing you'd want people to know about whether they're looking to get treatment or going through their own recovery journey, what would that be?

James Ivy: When it comes to answering that question, I would say one of the things that the disease did to me, it made me feel like I wasn't worthy. It made me feel like I was less than. And I remember that was one of the things that used to keep me using over and over again. And one of the things that I found out from being here in the Haymarket, it's like taking a hundred dollars bill and throwing it in a sui and pulling it out and washing it off. It doesn't matter what that a hundred dollars bill been through, it still has value. And that was one of the greatest lessons that I learned here at Haymarket, that I still have value.

So, what I would tell the person that's using the substances, there is help. Here at Haymarket, we understand the condition that you are in. And when it comes to substance abuse, one of the things that I found out that speaking to the alcoholic and an addict, it's the language of the heart, right? Because a alcoholic or addict is not going to listen or take any help from me until they know that I care. That was one of the greatest things that I was able to see when I got here at haymarket, that people actually cared about me. So, here at this facility, we care about you and you can get help and you are not your disease. You can lock an alcoholic up. You can threaten them. But they're not going to stop until they want to stop.

So for anybody that's looking for help, I would say once you get that moment where you start seeing your life is unknowledgeable, and you start seeing that you need help, to act on that,. Don't think about the next day. Just focus on that one day. Like I used the substance one day at a time, I need to focus on me getting the help that I need one day at a time. Help is available here at Haymarket. We understand. We understand addiction.

Host: James, thank you so much for joining us and sharing part of your incredible story. We look forward to hearing more from you at the Gala.

James Ivy: Thank you.

Host: Dr. Lustig, how did the diverse experiences of people like Mariel Hemingway and James Ivy enrich the conversation around addiction recovery at Haymarket Center?

Dan Lustig: Amanda, again, I think, you know, the most important aspect is to know that a substance use disorder or mental health disorder can impact anybody. It's not just that person who's homeless on the street. It can impact everyone. And I think the single theme here, as I hear James's story and I hear Mariel's story, is that treatment works when you need it to.

And when you look at our gala, our founder, Father McDermott, has set the tone that you can come to treatment regardless of your ability to pay for it. So, you don't need to have insurance when you come to Haymarket Center. We want to make sure that we connect you to treatment when you want it. And this fundraiser, which is our largest fundraiser of the year, really helps to support individuals who don't have the ability to pay for treatment. And this year, again, we are so honored to have Mariel Hemingway and James Ivy tell their stories.

And part of that special evening, we will be honoring US Senator Tammy Duckworth with the Father Mac Appreciation Award. We are also going to be honoring Chicago Alderman Walter Burnett with our Visionary Award in his impact on the west side of Chicago to really include services or at least be aware of homeless individuals and housing, housing being critical. And I don't want to leave out Matthews Real Estate with the Volunteer of the Year award because Haymarket Center can't do the work we do without having volunteers. And so, it really is going to be a special night, and I hope we will all join us.

Host: Truly an evening of appreciation, positivity, hope, and focusing on transformation. I encourage everyone to get tickets for the event a haymarketcenter.org/gala. Our guests were Mariel Hemingway, James Ivy, and Dr. Dan Lustig. Make sure to subscribe to our podcast, share and connect with us on social media at haymarketcenter.org/recoveryunscripted. Thanks for listening to Recovery Unscripted with Haymarket Center.