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COVID-19 Vaccine - The Facts

Intro: It's Your Health Radio, a special podcast series presented by Henry Mayo New Hall Hospital. Here's Melanie Cole.

Melanie: There's so much false information circulating about the COVID vaccines. And today, we're clearing so much of it up. Welcome to It's Your Health Radio with Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital. I'm Melanie Cole. And joining me is Courtney Mattley. She's a pharmacist and the clinical coordinator in the Pharmacy Department at Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital.

Courtney, I'm so glad to have you here. This is something I am extremely passionate about as are you. And I think that we really need to clear up some of these myths. So before we get into some of those, tell us a little bit about-- because a lot of the questions that I hear are how does Moderna, Pfizer and even J & J vaccines differ? Why is there a certain number of weeks difference between first and second? Why was J & J just one? Can you tell us a little bit about how these three differ?

Courtney Mattley: Hi, and thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be here with you and dispel some of these myths. I'm very, very passionate about this topic, so it's great to be out there and help spread the word and get some education to everybody who's interested. But this is probably the number one question that we get as pharmacists, is what are the differences and why are some warnings with one vaccine and not the other?

So ultimately, the way I like to describe it is goal of all of these vaccines is the same. The goal of all three of these that we're using is to deliver genetic material to our muscle cells. So that our muscles can create a protein and that protein is what you see on those pictures of the coronavirus. It's that spike protein that kind of sticks up out of that virus. And we want our body to create that as a mechanism to exposing our immune system, to see that spike protein, and know how to make an antibody before you actually may or may not get exposed to the actual virus, to the coronavirus.

So the goal is the same. The goal is to deliver that genetic material, whether it's mRNA, which is Pfizer and Moderna, or DNA, which is the Johnson & Johnson. The difference though with these three is how that gets delivered. So Pfizer and Moderna, they use the same mechanism. They use the mechanism of wrapping that mRNA into just a fat molecule, basically. Really, really not going to have any sort of effect on your immune system with that fat molecule, but it's going to deliver that mRNA to allow your muscle cells to make that spike protein. Whereas Johnson & Johnson, it delivers it a little bit differently. It delivers it in a similar way to the AstraZeneca that is being used in Europe.

And with these two vaccines, they put the DNA, they link it to common cold virus called the adenovirus and then link it to it. And the adenovirus, the common cold virus, it's a weakened version of it, so it cannot actually give you the cold or make you sick. But it is an actual virus, a weakened form of the virus, to link it to the DNA so that it delivers it to your muscle cells to make the spike protein.

So the goal and the end game is identical. Your body is making that spike protein so that you can mount an immune response against it before you may or may not be exposed to coronavirus.

Melanie: Let's hit some of these myths, Courtney. So people say they're hesitant about the vaccine because it came about too quickly. But mRNA technology, that's not really new, is it?

Courtney Mattley: It's not actually, no. It has been used in other vaccines that we really don't use in the United States. So it has been tested with some studies for HIV and some studies for Ebola. Now, we don't really use those in the United States, so we haven't been given that, but it has been studied. And it's also been used for immunotherapy against tumors and cancer. So we do have history and a lot of research that's already happened, which is really what aided us and allowed us to develop it so quickly because the groundwork was already set.

Melanie: After getting the COVID vaccine, will we test positive on a viral test?

Courtney Mattley: No. So that is a myth. It's a common question we get at the vaccine clinic is, "Oh, I have to get a test to travel or I have to get a test for my job. Am I going to be positive?" And no, the tests that we have right now, there have been no positives right after getting the vaccine.

Melanie: If someone had COVID and recovered, do they still need to get the vaccine?

Courtney Mattley: Yes. If somebody had COVID, they will mount an immune response and essentially be vaccinated because they have been exposed to the virus and they have built antibodies. However, unfortunately, the antibodies stay for a less duration than what the vaccine is showing. So, we can pretty much confirm that, on average, most people after they are infected with COVID, they have a pretty good immune response for about 90 days, maybe longer, maybe shorter, but on average, it's at least around 90 days. So they should be pretty protected from re-infection for about three months.

So what CDC is recommending is that if you were previously infected with COVID, you may not need to go run and get the vaccine right away. You're pretty protected for a little bit. But do not let those 90 days pass because after 90 days, there's a very good chance that somebody could be reinfected.

Melanie: Well, thank you. That was an important one. And now, in my opinion, this is one of the most important ones people have been asking. Can you still carry COVID? So if you're around a bunch of unvaccinated people, but you've been vaccinated, can you carry the virus to wherever it is you live if you've been traveling or to your home? Can you be a carrier without having the virus after being vaccinated?

Courtney Mattley: Yeah. So probably one of the most controversial questions is "Why do I have to wear a mask after I am vaccinated, right? I did this for me. I did this for my family, for society. I'm helping herd immunity and yet I'm still being asked to wear a mask." And people are very frustrated with that because we want to end this. We want to stop wearing the mask everywhere we go.

However, the question of can you still be a carrier? The jury is still out. They're still testing it, but because there is a chance that somebody, even after the vaccine and they have their own immunity, may still be able to carry it and give it to somebody else. That mask is really not to protect them anymore, the person who's been vaccinated, they're protected, but it's more for society.

So if I'm vaccinated, which I am, very happily vaccinated, I'm still going to wear a mask because I don't want to give it to somebody else when I go to the grocery store or when I'm walking around in society. I don't want to be the reason that I give it to somebody who hasn't had the chance to be vaccinated yet, because, you know, it's very hard to get an appointment in some areas because everybody's trying to get it. So until we get to that herd immunity of 80%, we should really, for the sake of society, still continue to wear the mask to protect everybody else who may or may not have been able to get one.

Melanie: Yay! I'm so glad that you said that. And I hope that the listeners heard that. And we're going to say it again loud and clear. We still need to follow these protocols until we have achieved this herd immunity and even after until we know more. I think that's such an important message.

So Courtney, now for adults, we were all kind of first on the list and I'm in my late fifties. So I was kind of up there. But kids, now my two, 18 and 21, have both had at least their one. What if little kids can't get it yet and parents want to travel with these kids or get together with other family members? What are you recommending as far as if the kids have not been vaccinated? Knowing what we know about how it affects kids in general, not across the board, but how in general, what do you want us to know about if the adults are vaccinated, but the kids aren't?

Courtney Mattley: One of the silver linings of COVID and something that was just pure luck really is that kids are not really affected by it. They can contract it, of course, and they can possibly spread it. But they aren't really at risk of that severe COVID or hospitalizations. Of course, there's the random cases that pop up here and there. Of course, yeah, it's not a blanket statement. I don't want that to be a concrete thing. There's always a risk, but it is very, very, very low, that I'm a young child will become sick from COVID, at least severely sick. So that is a very good thing and something that's really just our luck.

I think one thing that is really great though is that Pfizer and Moderna are actively doing these studies on kids. So the 12 and up study has already happened and they are actively recruiting down to, I believe, two years old, for Pfizer and Moderna. So we will have that data very soon. So if parents do want to get their kids vaccinated, I really hope that they have that data as fast as possible so we can get it analyzed and possibly approved.

Melanie: So for parents -- and this is a question that pediatricians have been getting asked for years and years and years -- for parents that are hesitant about getting their kids the vaccination, what would you like to tell them? You just kind of gave us a summary of kids and the vaccines, but if you were speaking to a parent, what would you say?

Courtney Mattley: So I have a two-year-old and I am a firm believer in vaccinations and really the good of society and eliminating some of these terrible diseases that we've seen in the past, measles and smallpox and really they're extremely low because of vaccinations and public health services like this. So COVID is just going to be another one of those things probably on that list. And, as soon as I am able to get my two-year-old vaccinated and we have the data and we can show that it's safe, of course, I'll be reading that data and seeing what FDA recommends, but as soon as it's available and approved, I would be very happy to take my son to get vaccinated, of course.

Melanie: Well, I'm glad that you said that as a mother of a young child, because that's really such an important question. So what have you been hearing? If you were to tell me the question you get the most or the myth that you would most like to dispel, tell us, Courtney, what would you like to tell everyone?

Courtney Mattley: Some people say, "I'm just going to wait. I'm just going to give it a year and then I'll get it next year. I'll see what happens. I'll make sure everyone is fine," which I understand. I mean, this is new to us. It's new to society. But the importance of getting everybody vaccinated quickly is sometimes understated. And we hear about these variants. We hear about, "Oh, this vaccine works against that variant now, or it doesn't work against this variant now." And just for example, the South African variant, we really cannot use the AstraZeneca vaccine, which was being used in that area, anymore for that variant, because it's not effective.

Now, luckily most the vaccines have still shown activity enough to prevent severe disease, but the longer we wait to vaccinate everybody, the higher likelihood of variants will occur. And there's always a chance that the next variant may or may not be something that the vaccine, whether it's Pfizer or Moderna or J & J, will cover.

So I heard an analogy of putting out a fire with a blanket. as far as putting out coronavirus with the vaccine. So if you put the blanket over the fire all at once, it can cut off the oxygen supply and just make the fire go away. If you lay a little piece of the blanket over it, it's just going to burn the blanket, right? So that was a really great analogy because, if we vaccinate everybody quickly, when we know that these vaccines work against most of the variants that being spread, we can stop the transmission and we can really stop all of these variants that still are being affected by the vaccine. We can stop them from spreading.

Now, if we wait too long, if we only let half of that blanket cover that fire, then it may not be as effective and it could really end up being something that we don't ever get rid of, because if there's multiple, multiple variants out there that are not effected by the vaccines, we're really losing our opportunity to stop it as quickly as possible. So as fast as possible is really the way to end the pandemic.

Melanie: What a great analogy. People, I hope that you just heard this blanket analogy because that was absolutely a perfect way to describe it. If you get that vaccine, we can get this blanketed and we can get it done, but otherwise it's eating away little bits and the variants, it's just going to extend all of the anguish and cause more deaths. So, Courtney, I love that you said that.

I just have a few more questions. Boosters. Do you think that we're going to need boosters and that this is going to be something, this is your opinion or what you've heard down the pipeline, that we might need boosters down the line. Like we get our flu shots every year?

Courtney Mattley: It's being studied. I know Pfizer and Moderna are out there right now, looking at the variants and creating those boosters kind of as a just in case. So, it will be available if needed. But I mean, obviously fingers crossed, we can get this taken care of without needing boosters, but it could very well end up being something that is like the flu. If there's enough variants out there and it's mutating quickly and in different areas all the time, then we may have to have boosters, which is really nothing different than a lot of our other vaccines out there. So it's not anything new. We just don't really know that answer yet.

Melanie: Yeah, I have to get my tetanus booster, not looking forward to that, but it is important that we keep up on our vaccinations, which can also be a message of this podcast today, is the importance of keeping up with kids and adult vaccinations that are required.

Courtney Mattley: Right. 10 years.

Melanie: Yeah, I know that. Now, side effects. Before we wrap up and ask my final thought question here, a lot of people have been getting the first dose and opting out of the second. And we hear, and I even asked you off the air about the not feeling well, part of the second dose. Why is that? Why is it so random? Why are some people even with poor immune systems-- you know, I have a brother awaiting a kidney transplant and he felt nothing, and then healthy people, I know, feel sick as a dog for a couple of days. Do we know why?

No, we don't. We don't know exactly why some people have that reaction and some people don't. We do know that that feeling of unwellness, maybe a low-grade fever, maybe having some chills that it is your immune system actively reacting to that vaccine. You're not actually getting "sick" from the vaccine, you're just reacting with your immune system.

So some people have said to me, "Well, it's great that I didn't feel well because I know it worked." But then other people who say they felt nothing, they were like, "Well, did it even work? Do I need to get it again? What happened? Why don't I feel bad like somebody else?" So it can be a marker of, "Hey, I know that it worked because I know I reacted to it," but they did look at this in the Pfizer study specifically. They did look at whether people who had the side effect of feeling a little bit unwell was correlated with the amount of antibodies that they had two weeks later. And there was no correlation.

So having the reaction after and not really feeling well does not mean that somebody has more antibodies and is more protected than somebody who does not feel well. It's just immune systems are very cool complex, and that we don't know exactly why some people feel unwell and some don't, but it is because of the immune system itself.

Thank you so much, Courtney. What a great guest you are. I want to give you a chance for a final thought here. You're speaking to a lot of people and there are some out there who are vaccine hesitant or even some of the anti-vaxxers. I want you to give us a great summary and you're so passionate and enthusiastic, and I can hear that in your voice. Use it now, Courtney. Tell people why it's so important that as a community, we care about each other, not just ourselves, that we care about the greater good, and that this is for the greater good.

Courtney Mattley: Yeah, it really is. And thank you so much again for having me. And COVID has thrown us a lot of curve balls in this last year, when it comes to therapeutics and mask, no mask. We've had lots of different messages out there, but I think, you know, we understand a lot more now than we did a year ago, which is pretty amazing.

So there's been a lot of curve balls, things like the Johnson & Johnson vaccine side effects have been one of them. There's a lot of data out there that can be unclear and a little unsettling to read because you can hear a lot of scary things that have just been not proven and have no substantial evidence to say that, but it scares people.

So, I think just do your own research. Go to the CDC website. It's a great website. They have an entire website dedicated to common questions and myths that are out there and they can show you the data. So, do your own research, but it really is in everybody's interest to vaccinate, not just America, but the world.

We are so intertwined now that just vaccinating America really is not enough. We need to vaccinate the world if we really want to end this pandemic.

Melanie: Agreed 100%. Thank you so much, Courtney, for joining us, sharing your really incredible expertise. You are just so knowledgeable. Thank you so much. And listeners, share this show with your friends and your family on your social channels, because that way we're learning from the experts at Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital together.

These myths are something that are going around and by sharing this on your Facebook page and your Twitter feed, you really will help to spread a more positive message and a message of quality that we can trust. So please share this with your friends and family. And if you have concerns, we encourage you to check the Henry Mayo website at HenryMayo.com and click on the virus link at the top of the page for more info.

That concludes this episode of It's Your Health Radio with Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital. Remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast and all the other Henry Mayo Newhall Hospital podcasts. I'm Melanie Cole. Thanks so much for listening.