Scott Webb (Host): Despite our best efforts, holiday stress can get to all of us, and my guests today have some tips and suggestions for how we can all make the holidays happy and relatively stress free. I'm joined today by Psychiatrist Dr. Patricia Mickunas and Psychologist Dr. Jean Scott, and they're both with Memorial Health System.

Welcome to Memorial Health Radio with Memorial Health System Ohio. I'm Scott Webb. So I want to thank you both for joining me today. We're going to talk about holiday stress. And I was mentioning to Dr. Mickunas that I was already at the store today and thinking about Christmas ideas and whether it's too early to start buying things. And I just took a deep breath and said, you know what? I'm not ready for this yet. And maybe some folks in the audience are experiencing that as well. So Dr. Mickunas, I'll start with you. Let's talk about holiday stress and why the holidays are for some anyway, more stressful than other times of the year.

Patricia Mickunas, MD: There can be a lot of reasons for that. And one of the things you mentioned, and Dr. Scott and I were discussing earlier today, one of the primary places where anxiety creeps in is when we are all comparing our reality to expectations of reality. And I think that the holidays for many, are certainly expectations are very overblown, not just because of family or whatever, but culture.

Now we have holiday decorations out before Halloween, and that was never the case in the past. So it's become really kind of this whole campaign of what it should be. Depression is worse in the winter. Many things are worse in the winter for various reasons, but when you have someone who's already struggling with depression, then to have that whole set of expectations put on them, it can be particularly stressful.

Host: Yeah, I see what you mean and bring you in here, Dr. Scott. We think about the expectations, right? And I know exactly what Dr. Mickunas is saying. Like, I see some of my neighbors starting to put up their Christmas decorations and I feel like, am I falling behind? You know, am I the problem here? Do I need to get out there and start doing some of these things? And as Dr. Mickunas is saying, of course, the winter, winter blues, this time of the year can be hard on everybody, but especially those who may be already suffering. So what's your perspective on expectations and the role it plays in holiday stress?

Jean Scott, PhD: Exactly. Yes, we were having a discussion earlier today about trying to be realistic about what is versus what we think should be. And of course, as a psychologist, I talk a lot about distorted thoughts and distorted expectations. And we receive lots of messages around the holidays that all families are perfect. We come together in that kind of Rockwell painting. And the turkey is wonderful. The dinner is wonderful. But that is just not the reality of everyone's situation and everyone's family. Some people do experience family like that, but other people, you know, don't and family can be a real source of anxiety and depression and trauma for others.

And then you start the comparison game about, well, why can't I have what that person is having? And if I spend this amount of money or that amount of money, I could just kind of produce what I want so much. So, yeah, we were talking about being realistic about expectations.

Host: Yeah, I see what you mean. And, you know, I wonder, there's probably a lot of factors. Media, social media, it's interesting you mentioned family and how that can be such a like a stress point or a tipping point for folks. And isn't that ironic? You know, family feels like it should be the thing that would be the least stressful, but often family coming over, planning menus and meals and gifts, oftentimes that adds to our stress, right?

Patricia Mickunas, MD: Absolutely. And even the expectation that that is what families should be doing. Some people may even have anticipatory anxiety thinking about how their family doesn't live up to that standard. And the reality is, no families live up to that standard. Social media would have us believe that because we all post our best selves or what we would like to have people think we are like, but that's false impressions.

Host: Right. Yeah. Most of us are not posting our worst pictures, right? We're posting those holiday photos after people have gotten to the bathroom and combed their hair and brushed their teeth and all of that, right? If they could really see us that morning as we're actually opening the presents, if those were the photos we posted. Dr. Mickunas, I'm wondering, so if we've established here that it is a stressful time for a variety of reasons, perhaps expectations and more, what suggestions do you have to help folks as they try to reduce the stress and just cope more effectively during the holidays?

Patricia Mickunas, MD: Well, we kind of touched very briefly on one aspect, try to stay away from social media as much as possible. That's very hard to do, especially for people who are much younger than me. And then there are these very recommendations on eating healthy meals. Everyone knows that. Staying away from alcohol. But giving yourself the grace to say no is a huge thing. It's a hard thing to do. You don't even have to offer excuses about why you don't want to go to a party on Christmas Eve and then have another party on Christmas Day with your family. You can just pick and choose. And if these are people who genuinely care about you, they will understand that.

Stay home on Christmas Eve. Watch a silly Christmas movie. Laugh, try to pick and choose. Try to prioritize what's important. Set a budget for yourself so you don't overspend. It's very tempting to go into debt at Christmas and then not pay it off till the next Christmas.

Host: Yes. And I'm sure the banks love us for that, that we're willing to go into debt to show how much we love our family members, you know, thinking about that, Dr. Scott, you know, how do we pick and choose? How do we prioritize? I know when our kids were younger, we just decided that it was just too stressful for us to pack up that whole operation and go on the road Christmas morning or Christmas day. So we started hosting and entertaining ourselves and we would have the family over for brunch and they could bring the gifts for the kids and it reduced our stress levels immensely. What other things do you recommend for folks as they try to pick and choose and lower their stress?

Jean Scott, PhD: Well, one thing I would recommend is really acknowledging your feelings and acknowledging and giving yourself permission. And like Dr. Mickunas said, the grace to recognize what is driving this behavior. Why are you feeling it necessary to pack up everything and go visit every family member from here to the other side of, you know, the county or the state.

 If you are feeling overwhelmed, if you are feeling sad or anxious or like it's just too much, giving yourself permission to acknowledge that is okay. That is okay to say no, it's okay to recognize, and it's also okay to show family members that we can love someone and set boundaries all at the same time.

And we don't have to absolutely, you know, dig ourselves into the emotional kind of tailspin to please others. And that is okay. So I would definitely say acknowledging feelings and being able to say no and recognizing that both of those are okay.

Host: Yeah, I think that's so right. But you know, it's one of those things over the holidays especially, it feels harder to say no, right? Other times of the year, I don't seem to struggle with no, I can't do that. I can't be there. I'm not doing that. But for some reason, over the holidays, I just feel like I have to say yes to everything. I'm sure a lot of folks feel the same way, right?

Patricia Mickunas, MD: I believe they do, and that certainly gets back to expectations. Expectations others place on us, our belief of what they, the expectations they have of us, and what we think society expects. As Dr. Scott was talking, I was thinking of an example of one family I knew, and they kind of came up with this idea that they just weren't going to participate, and so they set a budget.

Each person got the same amount of money, but they didn't buy Christmas gifts. They all went together the day after Christmas, spent their money, got back, kind of shared what they'd bought, and had a lovely dinner out. And they were perfectly happy with that, and nobody fought. I mean, that's genius. So there are many, many ways to celebrate, and to celebrate our family's uniqueness without getting into those kinds of situations and conflicts where we're trying to read one another's minds.

Host: You know, I can't speak for other folks, but I'm sure that a lot of families, or in a lot of families, Dr. Mickunas, there's divorce, and separations, and some splintering of families, and they end up sort of splitting up, you know, we'll celebrate with this part of the family, here and we'll celebrate the other part of the family on that date. Do you have any thoughts about that? You know, when we think about families or friends, and can't really all get together at the same time at the same place for a variety of reasons, divorce and otherwise. What are your thoughts about that, about all of us just kind of managing that and trying to get that right and not hurt people's feelings and so on?

Patricia Mickunas, MD: Well, you might hurt someone's feelings.

Host: Yeah.

Patricia Mickunas, MD: Or you might be assuming you're going to hurt someone's feelings when you really aren't. But honoring your own sense of what you can and cannot do. Maybe creating some new family traditions is something that could happen. Planning ahead. Again, something that can happen. Planning. Okay, my birthday is in January, so we can celebrate everything at the same time. So, I think that being very realistic with yourself and realistic with your loved ones is important. Some people have lost loved ones within the past year. It may be important to that family to set a celebration for that loved one as a part of their holiday experience. So, it's really about communication and setting limits.

Host: Yeah, you're so right. And as we've sort of established here, a common thread running through this is about allowing some time for ourselves and doing what's right and what's best for us, allowing us some moments of grace in all of this and resisting the temptation to try to live up to all of the expectations that both we may be putting on ourselves and others and they put on us. And, you know, your head kind of starts spinning a little bit. Dr. Scott, what do we do if we feel like we have a pretty good handle on things, but we see family members, loved ones, friends, and we see their stress levels rising. What do you recommend? How can we best help them?

Jean Scott, PhD: I think to best help other family members, friends, is to just recognize and kind of hold space for them where they are. If they are struggling as people pleasers and wanting to be there for everyone, just kind of acknowledging that you too understand and can empathize and validate that experience and provide that there is always an option.

I know it can be hard to get in sometimes to see a therapist or a psychiatrist. But that if you're having difficulty kind of sorting these things out, that you can seek professional help. Sometimes it is difficult when we talk to family and friends to sort kind of some of these very complicated dynamics out. And talking to an objective party specifically around the holidays can at times give us some different perspectives on how to be helpful to others.

Host: Yeah, Dr. Mickunas, you can see why an objective party would be a good plan. Uh, because, you know, trying to discuss our stress levels with perhaps the folks that are you know, responsible in some part for those stress levels maybe wouldn't be most effective. Just want to give you a chance here, Doctor, as we wrap up, just final thoughts, takeaways, you know, the holidays for many, at least we want them to be a happy and joyous time filled with family and friends and all of that. So what's your best advice to manage stress and to sort of accomplish those goals?

Patricia Mickunas, MD: To give yourself permission to have stress. It can be stressful, but stress doesn't last forever. As I was talking to Dr. Scott today, life doesn't stop between November 23rd and restart again on January 2nd. We have a full life with full responsibilities during that period of time. It's not to eliminate stress, it's to keep stress at a level that you can manage it. So, that's really the key there. Dr. Scott was mentioning an objective party. That may be a mental health professional. There are a number of crisis lines. There are national crisis lines. People who are involved with their church, their minister may be a good source. It's really about the quality of the relationship that you have with that objective party. But stress is going to happen. Stress always happens. It's a matter of how you deal with it.

Host: Yeah, I think that's perfect. A perfect way to end today is, you know, understanding the expectations and what's driving them and dealing with them and managing them. It does feel Doctor, like many sort of put their lives on hold for that time from right before Thanksgiving till just after New Year's. But as you say, we have other things to do, other responsibilities. Family, friends, life, work, all that stuff. So I just want to thank you both for your time today. This was really helpful and you both stay well.

Patricia Mickunas, MD: Yes, thank you very much.

Jean Scott, PhD: Thank you.

Host: And to find out more or connect with one of our providers, go to mhssystem.org. And if you found this podcast helpful, please share it on your social channels. And remember to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. And check out the entire Memorial Health System podcast library for additional topics of interest.

Thanks for listening. I'm Scott Webb, and that wraps up this episode of Memorial Health Radio with Memorial Health System Ohio.