Evo Terra (Host): Welcome. This is Conversations with MIT Health. I'm Evo Terra. And today we're bringing you a panel discussion on the topic of acupuncture at MIT Health. I'm joined by Abram Ojure, Clinical Director of New England Integrated Health, Caitlyn McCourt, Director of Community Wellness, and Katie Choi, the Supervisor of Community Wellness.

Thanks to all three of you for joining me today on this panel discussion. I'm going to first ask each of you to tell me a little bit more about your role at MIT Health, and I'll start with you, Abram

Abram Ojure: Hi, I'm Abram. I'm the clinical director for the acupuncture services. So I'm overseeing the team that provides services at MIT and I'm also a provider at MIT Health.

Caitlyn McCourt: Hi, I'm Caitlyn McCourt. I work as the Director in Community Wellness and our team is responsible for working collaboratively with campus partners to design unique and flexible wellness programs that really help all members of the MIT community flourish and thrive.

Host: Excellent. And how about you, Katie?

Katie Choi: Hi, I'm Katie Choi, I'm the Clinical Supervisor for Community Wellness, and I manage the day to day operations of the Acupuncture Service.

Host: Thanks again for joining me, all of you. Let's start here. Abram, how do you introduce acupuncture to those who are unfamiliar, let's say, with the practice? Can you give us a brief overview?

Abram Ojure: Sure. This is something that happens very frequently, less than it used to, but it's still a common question. Usually we just let people know that it's a very safe old tradition that's used to treat a variety of health conditions and although some people are nervous about needles, actually most people love acupuncture. It's very relaxing and effective.

Host: Great, great. What do you do about the people who are somewhat, let's say, skeptical of the process?

Abram Ojure: If they're skeptical, it's totally fine. A lot of people are skeptical and I think usually we start with a treatment plan that is, let's say, four to six treatments and we say, hey, If you're skeptical, let's start out with this treatment plan and see how it goes. And we'll do a few treatments. If you're feeling better, we'll take it from there. If not, we can talk about other services at MIT Health that might be a better fit.

Host: That's a great answer. And I'll come back and ask about some of those other services in just a moment. But before I do that, Caitlyn, you're the director of Community Wellness there at MIT Health. Can you talk about what makes this service to the community unique?

Caitlyn McCourt: It's really quite amazing that we have acupuncture embedded in MIT Health. Most importantly, it really provides easy and convenient access to quality care and treatment for our patients, but it also demonstrates MIT Health's commitment to treating the whole person. And that's through integrating conventional medicine and complementary therapies.

So this just allows us to provide really collaborative care where we can address the well being of our patients and really improve their health outcomes.

Host: That's excellent. So Caitlyn, I know that you and Katie both have, have been patients yourself and received acupuncture treatments. I have not, so I am curious. Not a big fan of needles, so, do they hurt? What was the experience like? And Katie, I'll start with you.

Katie Choi: So they did not hurt personally. I was very skeptical and fearful of needles at first as well, but I feel so relaxed. This is my personal experience, but I feel really relaxed after each visit. I sleep super well. I have restful sleep and the day after the treatment I do feel like an increase in energy and reduced tension. So I really enjoy it and I recommend it to everyone.

Host: Great. Caitlyn?

Caitlyn McCourt: Yeah, I've been fortunate as well to be a patient for years and, I would say the needles are hair thin, so extremely small. I also find it really relaxing and I use the appointments to really disconnect from my work, from my phone and just allow my body and mind to be still. So personally, it's helped with overall wellbeing. But for me, seasonal allergies and also some neck and back pain that I've experienced. So I do recommend acupuncture.

Host: I'm sure personal stories help a lot. Abram, as the practitioner, what are the most common reasons you typically see people come in for acupuncture? And, and a follow up on that, is there anything new people should keep in mind?

Abram Ojure: Thanks, great question. We are seeing most commonly, like almost any healthcare practice, pain as the number one thing that brings people into the office. Whether it's chronic, acute pain, back pain, neck pain, dysmenorrhea, menstrual pain. We are seeing that, I think, first and foremost, and then after that, we see a range of different conditions.

 Caitlyn mentioned allergic rhinitis, like seasonal allergies. We also see, you know, anxiety, insomnia, a lot of comorbidities. But I did want to address the question from before, because I'm also a patient of acupuncture, and I think it's a great, it's a great question, and it's one that comes up almost every day in our office. I'm very needle sensitive. So I think our team's approach is really patient centered and driven by that perspective. And we spend a lot of time with our patients, which is one of the things that's really unique about this service at MIT. Patients are here for an hour, and we get to know them a little bit before we start.

We always ask them if they're needle sensitive or anxious, and then we use a lot of different techniques to try to make the, the process very seamless and easy. And so for me, because I know from the other side exactly what it's like if you're anxious about needles, you know, we use I think that just like a very quick, effective approach to needling.

And so almost everyone that comes in, that's really freaked out, leaves feeling like, well, that was not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.

Host: Yeah, well, that's definitely encouraging. Earlier you mentioned, other services, so let's stay with you for a moment longer, Abram. What other acupuncture adjacent, I guess, services, do you offer?

Abram Ojure: We offer a ton of additional acupuncture adjacent services, aside from what's sort of in the house of traditional Chinese medicine. So we do Gua-sha, which is a scraping technique to reduce inflammation, cupping, things like this. But I think what I was referencing is that at MIT Health, this is like a huge value add, which is that we have integrated services.

So, uh, we're offering acupuncture on the third floor and first and second floor has sports medicine, you know, orthopedics, women's health, all of these other services in addition to what Community Wellness offers and mental health and counseling. So it's, we have this range of different ways to try to help the community feel better, address health concerns.

Host: Let me talk to you about, for a moment, Abram, and Katie, and Caitlyn, I promise, I will get back to you in just a moment. But one more question for Abram. Let's talk about the frequency of treatments. You know, sometimes I go to a doctor and I need one thing and I'm done. Other times I need to go to physical therapy and have a variety of things done.

What's it like? How many treatments does someone typically need to see before they get benefits for acupuncture and perhaps even the other TCM related services?

Abram Ojure: Sure. That's a great question and another one that's very frequent in our office. I think that, you know, huge upside to acupuncture is it's incredibly safe, but it typically does take a few treatments before patients will notice a benefit. Not always. Often we'll have referrals, for example, from urgent care, which is one of the reasons why this project is unique.

Someone may be reporting into another service in MIT Health and then come to us really quickly. Someone may have benefit after the first treatment, but typically you're thinking four to six treatments before you assess prognosis.

Host: Excellent. Katie, question for you about the well, MIT community, I guess, and the members who can utilize MIT Health's acupuncture services. Talk to me about the experience. How do they do it? What's really happening with the entire Community Wellness at MIT Health?

Katie Choi: So for acupuncture specifically, we serve a very diverse patient population and individuals receiving care at MIT and has one of the MIT sponsored health plan is eligible for acupuncture. and the co-pays vary depending on their insurance plan. The experience of getting acupuncture, we get this question a lot, from patients and potential patients.

So when you come in for an acupuncture visit, you are greeted by one of our staff member or patient experience representative, and you are guided to a very relaxing private treatment room. And then the provider will discuss with you about your medical history and any of the concerns that you might be coming in for.

And then you'll be seen for about 60 minutes, like Abram mentioned before. And the provider will check in on the patient, throughout the visit to make sure that the patient is comfortable with the needling as well as, on the treatment bed. And after the visit, like Abram mentioned, the provider will discuss with the patient to figure out the frequency that they want to come in for treatment or what they recommend.

Host: Great, thank you for that. Caitlyn, I'll give the final word to you. Is there anything else you want patients to know about the programs or services in Community Wellness?

Caitlyn McCourt: I think one of the things that we would hope that patients know that at MIT Health, caring for the patient really does extend beyond the exam room. So Community Wellness really offers a robust portfolio of programs and resources designed to help take care of your body and mind. And we also provide meaningful opportunities for social connections and relationships.

So if you're looking to stay active, sleep better, relieve stress, or connect with others, we can certainly help you.

Host: Excellent. Well, I thank you very much for that information, Caitlyn, as well as Abram and Katie. Thank you very much for joining me and telling me and everybody else more about what acupuncture and MIT Health has to offer. And with that, I will say that concludes this episode of Conversations with MIT Health.

Please head on over to our website at health.mit.edu for more information and to get connected with one of our providers. Please remember to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast and all the other MIT Health podcasts. For more information, for health tips and updates, please follow us on your social media channels.

I'm Evo Terra, and this has been Conversations with MIT Health. Thanks for watching.