Scott Webb (Host): Setting healthy boundaries in relationships, be they personal, professional, or otherwise, can lead to better and more fulfilling relationships. And here to tell us more today is Christie White. She's a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor.

This is Flourish, the podcast brought to you by Prisma Health. I'm Scott Webb. Christie, it's so nice to have you here today. I know that you're a licensed marriage and family therapist and licensed professional counselor, so you're definitely qualified to have this conversation and answer these questions today. How are you doing?

Christie White: I'm doing great, Scott. Thank you so much.

Host: That's great. We're going to have an important and, hopefully, meaningful conversation about healthy boundaries in relationships. And I'm sure most of us have been in relationships, some good, some bad, maybe they would have benefited from these healthy boundaries. So, let's just start there. What does that mean to have healthy boundaries in relationships?

Christie White: First, I think at its simplest definition is a boundary is really a relational property line. And it's kind of where I begin and end and you begin and end. And it defines, you know, what we're responsible for. And healthy boundaries really respect and honor our needs and wants and preferences and safety. And other people's needs and wants and preferences and safety. And so, they really define our values and limits.

Scott Webb: Yeah, it is interesting. As you're kind of putting it, we could probably use lots of different analogies, but sort of carving out some territory for ourselves and for each other. And I've always found just as a person who's been in relationships, and I've been married a long time that, you know, a lot of times it's just about sort of like speaking up, like advocating for oneself. You know, what do you need, when do you need it, what's my little territory here?. So, let's talk more about that. Let's roll up our sleeves a little bit and talk more about why boundaries are so important in relationships.

Christie White: So, they help us have better relationships and a better sense of self and a better sense of safety, really. And unfortunately, what we see often is people setting boundaries, but what they're actually doing is setting up maybe more of a barrier because maybe they're afraid of avoiding or they're afraid of relationship discomfort or conflict. And so, a barrier tends to keep people apart and perhaps needlessly isolated or separate from one another. But a boundary clarifies relationships and how we want to treat each other and tends to create more safety.

Host: That's really interesting. And I'm sure a lot of people will nod their heads when I sort of share this personal anecdote, but I got in the habit of saying something a particular way, because I heard someone else say it. And then, I found myself saying it all the time to my wife, apparently. I would say something like, well, apropos of nothing, right? So, I heard this really smart person say apropos of nothing, and then I couldn't stop saying it. And my wife, as you're saying about boundaries, she set a boundary for me. And she basically said, "It would really be great if you could stop saying that. If you could find just some other way to say it, because you're driving me crazy with apropos of nothing." And so, this is just as, you know, sort of a timely, ripped from the headlines of my life kind of topic of just kind of setting those boundaries. Like, "Hey, could you stop saying that please?" So, it makes me wonder, are there different types of boundaries?

Christie White: Yes, there are. There's many different ones on a broad scale. You know, of course, there are things like time zone boundaries and boundaries with our physical bodies or intimacy boundaries, professional boundaries. So, lots of different kinds. But classically, according to Cloud and Townsend, who literally wrote the book called Boundaries, there are two main ones, generally speaking. So, there are defining boundaries and then protective boundaries.

So, defining boundaries are things that establish who you are and who you're not and reflect what you believe is important and valuable in life. So for example, someone may have the defining boundary that family comes first. And so, they purposefully choose a job that allows them to be home when their kids are home or when their partner is off of work too. Or someone may believe that they're fitness is really important, you know, their health. So, they go to the gym multiple times a week. So, that would be an example of like defining boundaries.

But then, there are protective boundaries, which are designed more to guard you from dangers, abuse, unnecessary trouble. And protected boundaries may have to be enforced when talking has not improved a situation. And that's really the key. We want to try to make, say, a request first, and then try to repeat or reiterate the request and then respond with limits if talking really hasn't improved that situation. And so, protective boundaries often have kind of an if-then structure. So for example, we may anticipate holiday gatherings with family coming up, and we may request that our family members keep conversations, you know, kind of free of the hot button topics. But if it continues, we can say, "Hey, you know, I asked for us to limit the hot button topics, and I'm feeling a little ignored right now because it keeps happening. if it continues, I think I'll just head home for the night or just head up to bed," you know, things like that.

Host: That's so interesting. It's essentially what my wife gave me. She gave me an if-then. She said, "If you say apropos of nothing one more time, I'm going to scream."

Christie White: You limit. Those are protective a boundaries.

Host: Yeah. And she was very clear with me. You know, Christie, I'm assuming obviously that there are healthy boundaries, and we've probably all been good at times of setting some healthy boundaries. And also, you know, the other side, the flip side of that coin is the unhealthy boundaries. So, let's talk about them a little bit and what can happen if there are unhealthy boundaries.

Christie White: So, I wanted to say too, oftentimes, we can have different types of strengths in implementing different types of boundaries. So, say, someone might have very healthy professional boundaries, you know, they follow professional ethical standards very decidedly, but they may struggle with relational boundaries in their nuclear family interactions, or they may have difficulty expressing their needs or wants.

So yeah, we can have healthy boundaries in certain contexts and might struggle in other contexts with more unhealthy boundaries. And so, what can happen is, if our boundaries are too diffuse or overly flexible, we can kind of be stepped on in our relationships with others. We might become passive or lose our voice in those relationships and they can become kind of focused on pleasing others without regard for ourselves. However, if our boundaries are too rigid or too inflexible, then we can become maybe overly aggressive or demanding. And our relationships can become focused on us you know, without regard for other people. Kind of my way or the highway, essentially.

Host: Yeah.

Christie White: So when we have healthy boundaries, we'll try to have the uncomfortable conversations that are sometimes necessary when there's, you know, misunderstandings or struggles. And we try to stay connected with others and not cut off. So, that's what would define more healthy boundaries.

Host: Yeah. As you're saying, we want boundaries, not barriers, right?

Christie White: Right.

Host: That's perfect. So, I think one of the things that probably, I don't want to speak for everybody, but at least with me, when I think back over my life about relationships, successful and otherwise when I think about setting these healthy boundaries, I think that there's always this sense, this feeling, like, I feel guilty. You know, I feel guilty sometimes. And I'm sure a lot of people do. We just sort of feel guilty speaking up or advocating or trying to set these healthy boundaries, even if it's in the best interest of the relationship to continue that relationship. So, how do we do that? How do we set healthy boundaries without feeling guilty?

Christie White: Well, and feeling guilty kind of implies that we're doing something wrong, right?

Host: Right. Yeah, of course.

Christie White: Yeah, having healthy boundaries isn't wrong, of course. So, we can have healthier relationships and interactions and clarifications whenever possible. And they exist to connect us in a more adaptive and meaningful way. So, maybe we can reframe setting boundaries as a way to be our best self, you know, in relation to other people, whether, again, at work or at home or in our communities and kind of reframing it that way.

Host: Right. In other words, you know, this is all meant for good. You're not evil. It's all good. We're trying to set boundaries, not barriers. We're trying to build and grow and be with someone. And so, you know, there should be no reason to feel guilty as long as we're, I don't know, fighting the good fight, right?

Christie White: Right. You know, good intentions go far.

Host: Absolutely. Yeah, this has been fun and good stuff today. I feel like we could talk for hours, but no one's going to listen to that. So, we're just going to keep it a nice bite-sized podcast here. I'll have you finish up, maybe give us some examples of what it looks like within. different types of relationships, right? Because in my mind I'm thinking, well, my wife, she's upstairs. And so, that's my frame of reference here. But for example, maybe some other people, family members, friends, coworkers, whomever.

Christie White: Absolutely. You know, I think one thing we can do is what we call saying yes to the person and saying no to the task. So, it might sound like, you know, "Thank you so much for thinking of me and asking if I can help coaching the kids or whatever this season. But due to just some other responsibilities. You know, I'm not going to be able to this year." So, we're kind of saying yes to the person's need. We're acknowledging the other person's needs, but we're also asserting ours. So maybe with a couple, it would be, if we're feeling kind of disconnected and we're not really okay with that, we're not as happy about that, we can say, "I just find that we're Not as connected, we're missing each other, and I do miss you, and so I really want to start establishing more of a date night. When can we do that?" So, we're setting out, again, kind of a defining boundary. You know, I want to protect our relationship. And so, I'm not okay with this over here, so what can we do to make it different? Or we can also, you know, say if it's a friend or maybe a co-worker or someone, we can go back to our request, repeat, respond with limits kind of idea where maybe someone's commenting on our physical appearance and we can say, "I'd really prefer that you not comment on my physical appearance." But if they continue, we can say, you know, I asked you to please not comment on that. And if you continue, I'm just going to head home because this is really making me uncomfortable," or "I'm just going to go back to my office" or whatever it is so that we can, again, establish that limit where we are uncomfortable and we want to do some things differently within that context.

Host: Right, right. And be firm about it. Of course. So, a lot of food for thought for me today anyway, and I'm sure listeners. So, thank you so much.

Christie White: Thank you, Scott. I really appreciate it.

Host: For more information and other podcasts just like this one, head on over to prismahealth.org/flourish. This has been Flourish, a podcast brought to you by Prisma Health. I'm Scott Webb. Stay well.