Scott Webb (Host): Today we're going to learn about Existential Humanistic Psychotherapy and Somatic Experiencing from Christopher Bradshaw and James Davis respectively, and how these experiential approaches to therapy benefit clients at Sierra Tucson.

 This is Let's Talk: Mind, Body, Spirit by Sierra Tucson. Sierra Tucson, a leader in the field of behavioral healthcare since 1983. I'm Scott Webb. It's really nice to meet you both. Great to have you on. We're going to learn more about what you do, whether it's Existential Humanistic Psychotherapy, or Somatic Experiencing. So, Chris, I'll start with you. Just want to have you, you know, basically describe your role at Sierra Tucson. What's your background, qualifications, and then talk more about EH, Existential Humanistic Psychotherapy, what it is, how it works, how it's experiential in nature, and so on.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: I'm a specialty therapist here at Sierra Tucson. I do group therapy, small group therapy, and one-on-one therapy. My groups look at, I do some group dream analysis and I do an existential humanistic group therapy and I do some substance use related group therapy. And my background, I've worked in mental health since about 2010 in different leadership and clinical roles. I'm a licensed counselor and a PhD candidate in clinical psychology.

And Existential Humanistic Therapy is a big part of what I do. And I've trained in it pretty extensively. And essentially Existential Humanistic Therapy focuses on two ongoing and implicit questions. They're kind of two questions that I'm always asking when I'm working with clients and kind of feeling into and helping them feel into, which is, how am I presently living in this moment and how am I willing to live in this moment? Some things I love about it, and I think some things that maybe Jim can maybe relate to is that it really emphasizes the real relationship between the therapist and the client, the process, kind of the immediate, what's going on in this moment between therapist and client, the affective or the emotional, the kinesthetic, the body kind of sensations. And in Existential Therapy we talk about the profound. So those big questions that we all, that sometimes keep us up at night in terms of what really matters to me.

Host: Sure.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: What is kind of the meaning of, of my life and those type of questions. So we don't shy away from kind of the big, the big questions.

Host: Yeah, big questions for sure. And, uh, Jim, want to have you tell us about what you did before Sierra Tucson, how you got there, background, qualifications, that kind of thing. And then describe Somatic Experiencing and how it's experiential.

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: I've been at Sierra Tucson for 23 years, which is quite a while. I, uh, uh, initially I came as a, a, um, primary therapist, doing for the most part, chemical dependency and addiction therapy. And although I was licensed in California before I came here, for 15 years, I also did a lot of that sort of work. My earliest training was in Gestalt therapy, which is another experiential therapy. And that sort of, uh, became a part of everything I did over the years. About six years ago, I was in management here at Sierra Tucson and I really wanted to get back to being a therapist, which is what I'm best at. And I began training in Somatic Experiencing, which is a three year training. And then I, you know, I got that certificate and at that point they hired me on and my actual job title is Somatic Experiencing Therapist. But like Chris, I'm, I'm a, a specialty therapist here. Shall I discuss Somatic Experiencing a little bit?

Host: Yeah, I was going to ask you, I was going to follow up with you. Like what is it exactly and what excites you about that approach? What? What do you love most about it?

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: It's experiential by nature. That's in the title, it's Somatic Experiencing. It's in the Trauma Healing Department. Uh, so it's trauma healing therapy. But in saying that, the question for me comes up, so what does that mean? What does trauma do that can be healed, that can go away, that can be fixed? And it turns out that when bad things happen earlier in life, upsetting things, disgusting things, life-threatening things, when they happen to a person or to somebody close to that person, it can shift the way our nervous system approaches the world. So instead of approaching going out into the world from a place of safety, we go out from a place of self-protection. Which is not a bad thing, but it's only in the, in the safety setting of our nervous system that we can really rest and digest and have fun and have friends, and be social and all those things. So it becomes difficult for people to enjoy their life. And what Somatic Experiencing does, it helps reregulate the nervous system so that when things are safe, a person can enjoy their life and when there's a threat, they can protect themselves and then flexibly move in between those two.

Host: Yeah, I like that. Flexibly move. Uh, Chris, I don't want to forget about you. I want to have you talk a little bit more about your approach, what you love about it, how it, you know, helps clients and patients.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah, so I think what a lot of the research shows in psychotherapy outcome research is that approaches that allow clients in a deep way to express emotions and that help them with overall their sense of meaning, how they're making meaning out of their experience. If it's an empowering meaning or a disempowering meaning and approaches that really focus on the therapeutic relationship between client and therapist, that those approaches do really well.

And, and those are things that are really emphasized in Existential Therapy. I mentioned those two ongoing questions, kind of how am I presently living and how am I willing to live. Most folks, it seems, you know, we some area of our life where we'd like to experience a bit more freedom, where we'd like to be able to break through, whether it's in a relationship, whether it's in a project, whether it's in, uh, financially, some other way.

And then there's something trying to emerge in us that's healthy and there's something blocking it, typically. The EH approach, Existential Humanistic Therapy, something I really love about it is it emphasizes the need to be more present in our experience, to kind of move around in it, to experience in our body, in our sensations, in our emotions, these kind of blockages that we have in life.

A common one might be that someone is struggling with setting boundaries in their life. They feel like they have to be a people pleaser. They have to say yes, and something that's trying to emerge, at least on the surface, they might come to therapy wanting to learn how to be more assertive and some approaches which are very valid, which I use these approaches too sometimes, might give them a, a ready made formula for kind of quick tips on how to be assertive, what to say, how to say it, that type of thing.

From an existential standpoint, we're going to look at the, you know, that that person's need to set boundaries is actually a full bodied experience. There's going to be lots of sensations and emotions involved, and it might not be so easy for some of us to give us a formula. You know, you say this to a assert a boundary. So we might spend some time with what we call an EH and embodied meditation, where we might essentially meditate on in a semi guided way, but it's very person-centered, all the sensations and intuitions and images that come up when this person is experiencing feeling blocked or feeling that they have to people please or feeling that they can't assert a boundary and something happens with us as human beings. And the great humanistic psychologist, Carl Rogers said that there's a curious paradox is that when I can fully accept myself as I really am, then I can change. So this acceptance and change, when I can fully accept myself, I start to understand the ins and outs of what's blocking me in a safe, attuned environment with a very present, warm, attuned therapist, helps me to be more present in my experience, move around in it, understand it better.

That's when I start to also find my full range of strengths. So another thing I touched on that Existential Therapy really looks at is these big polarities in life; freedom and responsibility. Most of us have some degree of choice or want to develop the ability to make choice. And yet we also have limits by our biology, our genetics, our culture. Most of us have a need to accept certain things about ourselves and a need to change certain things. And in the EH approach, we're really helping people to have a full encounter with those big questions. We tend to not give a lot of answers. It's more about helping someone experience.

There's an emphasis on the process over the content. So when I'm meeting with a client, there's what we're both saying, and then there's what's unsaid. There's the pre-verbal, there's the kinesthetic, there's the physical sensation, and that kind of gets brought out in the therapy. And one of the last things I'll say about it for this question is that this emphasis on therapeutic presence, I know there's a lot of neurobiological research out there on how healthy it can be in every way to be fully present in the moment.

 And in the EH approach, presence is really the foundation and the ultimate goal of the approach, and we define presence as kind of a therapeutic presence, as kind of a concerted engagement and support, and that the therapist is holding and illuminating that which is palpably significant within the client and between client and therapist.

So by palpably significant, we mean what we can feel, what immediately we can feel, emotionally, kinesthetically, and then again, the profound. So this person's values. When they think of how I want to live my life, in general, what comes to mind and what do they feel kind of in their guts when they think how I want to live my life in general.

Host: Yeah. And Jim, I know that we've been going here a while, but maybe if we stop a little bit here and just kind of define the terms. What is experiential, like when we think about that and what you both do and how both approaches really are experiential in nature. What does experiential mean in this context?

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: So I'm going to use the example that Chris used earlier where he was talking about client comes in, uh, is a bit of a people pleaser, wants to work on changing that and set better boundaries and, and have their, their, their voice be more heard, more solid. Okay, so, I'm going to compare and contrast right now with, with traditional talk therapy. So in traditional talk therapy, the person would come in say, yeah, I've got this problem. Therapist would say, well, tell me about it, you know, and, and they'd talk about it and they'd talk about their beliefs. But if it was experiential therapy, then in the, in the dialogue between the therapist and, and the, the client, the therapist would be looking for, for this issue to come up between between them and the client.

So did you notice that you just apologized? Did you notice that, that, um, you're allowing me to, to, uh, overspeak. Uh, do you notice you're, you're being quiet here? Yes. And as the person begins to notice, they have this little thing that we call the witness. The witness kind of sits in the back of your head and watches things go by. And as that gets stronger, then the person begins to see in the moment as they're doing it, uh, what choices they're making and what choices they're not making. And at that point in the moment, in the experience of the moment, the person can try a new choice. And see how that feels. Maybe they'll decide, Hey, you know what? I liked the way I was. Maybe I really don't want to change. Or maybe they'll say, oh, that feels really good. So we're doing it in, in the moment rather than talking about it, we're actually experiencing what's going on. Yes. So that's,

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: You might, that's what I, that's what I'm mean excited again, because, and we might notice like fluctuations in voice tone. Or how the person's carrying themselves physically. And it's not a kind of, cause I know both of our approaches are pretty invitational and gentle and, and it's not about picking the person apart, but it's about kind of you building a relationship to where they feel safe to explore. And, um, yes. Yeah. I'm really resonate. That's part of what excites me about it. Just the experiential aspect.

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: Yeah. I, I, uh, uh, my teacher in Somatic Experiencing, I'm quoting her a bit, says that it's much more about what the person does right than what the person does wrong. Yes. Right. So we're building on strengths. We're building on strengths. Um.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: One thing I want to say in response to that, that's very similar, to the existential approach when you mentioned the witness, sometimes we talk about the development of a counter will. That's an autoronk idea. Uh, in, in that, you know, there's, there's something healthy trying to emerge. In this example we've been giving. It's like a balanced assertiveness or a boundary setting ability and something that's blocking it, which is we're kind of labeling as people pleasing, which can sound a little pathologizing, but it might be more from an existential standpoint, we might say the person's may be struggling with separateness and connection, meaning they, they feel safer, feeling really merged and connected and non-threatening with others.

They're not so comfortable with separateness, like asserting a separateness. Um, so this counter will is kind of a will that's helping them to integrate and move past the, the, the blockage kind of, um, yeah, so I wanted to comment on that, that, that the witness, uh, developing the ability to observe kind of real time and we would say, um, in existential psychology developing kind of the, the will to, um, to counter that, that block. To face it and kind of counter it.

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: Right, and, and experience it in, in, uh, traumatic experiencing, very similar except that we would experience it in the moment. And when that happens, what do you notice? Well, I noticed that I felt ashamed of myself, or I felt proud of myself, or I noticed that my breathing got shorter. I noticed whatever it is, whatever in that moment goes along with it, that is, that is the story that the body is telling. And that is the somatic experience because somatic, of course means of the body. And so that's where, that's where um, uh, should the person want to make the changes, that's where they can see what it is they're doing. And then when they leave the clinical office, they have that experience. Oh, that's where that, that is. So I can now have a choice when I know what I'm doing.

Host: Sure.

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: So Scott, you asked actually a, a really, really good question.

Host: Yeah how does it, how does it, how do, how do you know it? It's, it's helping, it's really working with folks?

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: How do you know it's helping? That is such a good question. Let's talk about PTSD. Let's say that every time a helicopter flies over, the person, the, uh, the, I'll be talking in this case, uh, about a soldier returning from, from, uh, the military. Every time a helicopter flies over, this person either gets uncomfortable or gets uncomfortable to the point where they actually hide or they actually duck. Um, so, if the, after a course of therapy, if the person goes out into the world and helicopters fly over and they don't even notice or they say, oh, there's a helicopter, the symptoms are gone, that's how you know.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Mm-hmm hmm. Hmm. Yeah. And I would say, um, for Existential Humanistic Therapy, and I would, that would certainly feel the same to me as well, with the same type of issue. Another thing that, that we're looking at is kind of a, a rediscovery of a sense of meaning and a sense of awe. Like awe for, living. So the, the cultivation of a kind of a humility and wonderment for our lives, you know, so that isn't, the, the lineage that, that I'm coming from and, and I, and I should, should have said at the beginning that a lot of what I'm saying is based on the work of Kirk Schneider and Ralo May and other leading lights in Existential Humanistic Psychology. And I trained at Existential Humanistic Institute. Um, and so we're looking at when someone, let's go back to the example real quick of someone who's struggling with, let's say, some people pleasing tendencies or we've identified that they're, they're not comfortable with a sense of separateness, they're not comfortable with, they don't feel like they have the freedom to assert a boundary and be separate from someone.

They feel a certain blockage to where they have to merge with other people in order to feel safe, it's probably some type of trauma response. There's probably a lot of anxiety attached. Um, as an existential therapist, that anxiety, we don't, it's a very, I think both of the approaches, and I'll let you, we're a very non pathologizing approach, so we don't believe that anxiety, let's say in this example, is necessarily a bad thing. Obviously, sometimes it needs to be medicated. There needs to be lots of things going on if it's excessive, but we see anxiety as some fire power and energy that's there to tell this person that they have a limited amount of time in this life.

The clock is ticking. It's not a dress rehearsal. They are important. Their values are important. Their needs are important. Their imagination is important. Their physical experience of their psychology is, is important, and that anxiety is there to say, Hey, this could all end and you might not ever gain this freedom to assert this boundary. You might spend your whole life getting pushed around or manipulated or whatever it is, and so we believe to be present in that anxiety, physically, emotionally, and that's this experiential element that it's, it's not only me providing education from an evolutionary psychology or a nervous system perspective, that anxiety is this. Let's tone it down and then say this to assert a boundary. It's more of a, this is a potential friend and let's experience it. Move around in it. And see what comes up for you in terms of how you want to assert a boundary. One of the, the dangers, I think of kind of the, the quick fix or quick tips kind of mindset is a lot of folk's issues are not quick fixes.

So when we're giving quick tips and quick, we could potentially discourage someone when they try and it doesn't really work. Or, you know, when we over pathologize, um, certain human emotions that ultimately we, we might need. So that's kind of, kind of my answer to that. I'm not sure. How do, how do you feel about that, Jim?

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: Um, similarly, I should have said at the outset that Somatic Experiencing was developed by Peter Levine. Um, and then he had students who are now teaching it, one of which is, is is the person that, that has taught me, uh, which is, uh, her name's Allison Halquist. And also I should have said that, that this is, I've, I was a therapist for many, many years before I came to Somatic Experiencing. And that, so my therapy is informed by that as well. Um, and I don't necessarily speak for the Somatic Experiencing Institute, um, but, but what, what I have learned from them has been profound. Um, I, uh, exactly as Chris said, um, I, I, it it, earlier in my career, I was, uh, it was my job to diagnose. I used the, the, the DSM 4 at the time, the DSM 4R, and I would give people a five axis diagnosis.

Um, it's very psychiatric, uh, in that regard. Um, but as a somatic experiencing therapist now, it's not that those things, uh, don't have any meaning, but they're not the way I see the world. So, um, uh, I look at people from, uh, uh, uh, uh, autonomic nervous system point of view. Either a person is having self-protective responses, which we call fight, flight, and freeze, or they're not.

They're coming from a place where they're, they're feeling safe and secure in the situation. And that's pretty much as, as far as I generally diagnose things. Um, from a point of view of, of experiential, can this person, my first question is always, can this person be in the moment with me? Can they be a part of this, this dialogue?

Can they be a part of this therapy? Sometimes they can't. Sometimes their symptoms are too overwhelming and they may need a medication. Sometimes they may have just had a bad phone call. Sometimes, uh, um, uh, they may have a stomachache. I mean, there's a lot of things that happen that, that, that, that, that may in this moment be in the way of their therapy.

Um, if they can't, then I stay right there with them and we gently, uh, move forward to see if they can join me and, and, and, and, and find safety and orient within the room. Um, if they can't, then, then that's where we're going to work. Uh, so there really isn't, um, I, I, I really like that Chris brought up pathologizing people. Um, I, I tend to shy away from that sort of thing, um, because I don't find it helpful. Uh, and, and it's not necessary to do the, the experiential work that I do.

Host: Mm-hmm. Well, you know what? I feel like we could speak for much longer. You know, you've got me thinking about my life and all of my things and thinking about the folks there at Sierra Tucson, clients, patients, and how you help them, whether it's the EH or Somatic Experiencing, it's really good stuff and interesting. But we want to be mindful of people's time, so I just want to thank you both for your time today explaining all this. I'm sure if people want more, they can reach out. You've mentioned a number of the folks who taught you and the authors and so on, so thank you both. And you both stay well.

Christopher Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Thank you very much.

James Davis, MA, LMFT (Calif), SEP: All right. Thank you, Scott. It was a pleasure.

Host: And for more information, go to sierratucson.com. And if you found this podcast to be helpful, please share it on your social channels. And be sure to check out the full podcast library for additional topics of interest. This is Let's Talk: Mind, Body, Spirit from Sierra Tucson. I'm Scott Webb. Stay well.