Caitlin Whyte (Host): I don't know about you, but I know I'm on my phone way too much, and I'm on my laptop too much, and I'm probably watching too much TV as well. It's something I think about really every day. So for this episode, we are talking all about healthy relationships with technology with specialty therapist Chris Bradshaw.

 This is My Miracle Radio by Sierra Tucson Alumni Relations. I'm your host, Caitlin Whyte.

Caitlin Whyte (Host): Well, working in your field, Chris, I'd love to start off this episode with some of the challenges that you see people facing with technology use. And what are the dangers of technology use, more generally, that you do see?

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Thank you for asking that, Caitlin. It's a great question. Well, to start, I could say many people, including myself sometimes, and clients, will say that they find their technology use somehow excessive, they're doing a little more of it than they'd like, they feel somewhat compelled or pulled towards it. So then that's one set of kind of challenges, I suppose.

 So then the question is, well, why is that an, an issue? And I think a lot of it really depends on the person. It can be really unique. But you hear things like, I, I really value being present with my family, and yet, I feel as though we're all on our screens all the time, or my kids are sometimes more interested in the screens than connecting with me, or sometimes I'm pulled towards my screens when I want to be connected with my kids.

And what I see this as from an existential perspective, I see this in a couple ways I'd like to touch on and get your thoughts on. Because there's a lot of directions we could go with this. Some might be more familiar than others. I'd like to touch on an aspect that might be less talked about or less familiar.

That as, as human beings, we probably have a need for stimulation and distraction and even dissociation and things that kind of easily distract us. And we also have a need for deeper fulfillment and to be present in our lives. And part of what I see from an existential perspective as the dangers of technology are the following.

We have these experiences as humans that are very uncomfortable, that we tend to try to avoid, and I'm going to name a few of them. Boredom, loneliness, anxiety, and guilt. So there's others too, but I know those are, those are some biggies. And sometimes it's, it's too dangerous for some folks to experience those too much, and we can talk about that later, but part of the issue I see with technology use is that we have come to a place where we can pretty much completely avoid or put off or postpone those experiences, or so we think, but the problem with that is that the other side of boredom is meaning and meaningfulness.

The other side of loneliness is love, the other side of anxiety is freedom and creativity, and the other side of guilt is hope, from an existential perspective. So, I'll just briefly explain what I mean. If we look at boredom and meaning, or meaningfulness, sometimes it's when we slow down and we sit with ourselves for a little bit and we let go of some of the easier distractions and stimulations; that we get in touch with something deeper within ourselves. We get in touch with what really matters most to us in life. We might reflect poignantly on the passage of time and that we don't have a limited amount of time. And that can start to bring in a greater sense of meaningfulness and a greater sense of appropriate urgency to live the life we really want to live. So if we're constantly killing boredom, we can lose that a little bit. That was kind of a mouthful, but I wanted to, to give you that kind of initial foray into challenges and dangers and kind of get your thoughts on it.

Host: Yeah, I think it's super interesting. It's something that I struggle with personally. I know, you know, after work, which is for me sitting on a screen all day, making these podcasts, I go into my living room where I turn on my TV screen and then usually open my phone screen and continue to scroll various apps while trying to watch TV and definitely, like you're saying, kind of keeping all those uncomfortable moments at bay. I have multiple screens going and I have multiple ways of just keeping myself stimulated, right?

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah. Me as well. And so then I guess a question can become, cause there's so many dangers we could talk about related to tech use and, and a lot of benefits of course, and we can't cover everything, but it seems to me so, so unique to the individual at what point or to what extent does that ever become a issue?

Host: Mm.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: I know for me, the things that give me the most satisfaction, require a little bit more attention and discipline and depth. And if I'm constantly avoiding those, those moments, it kind of gets in the way of my ability to fulfill those things.

So I, I see challenges and dangers related to relationships. I see, folks sometimes having a hard time listening to each other deeply. I see, um, you know, with some of the more familiar stuff, things, or people are talking about is with the algorithms, we get spoon fed everything that we like. And then when we encounter someone who's very different, very different views, saying things we don't like, things we don't find entertaining;

we can kind of start short circuiting. And it can be like we've lost sometimes the ability to make space for other people to listen deeply, to listen for more than two sentences.

And I think something's lost in there, in our humanity, I think.

Host: No, I absolutely agree and I really like this kind of human perspective of it and just reminding us of like, what is the purpose of all this technology, right? Because we focus so much on the negatives and there are clearly a lot of negatives when it comes to the way that we all consume media, social media, technology in general, phones, I could go on and on, right?

It's the distraction, it's the numbing, it's all kinds of stuff. But I'd love to also ask, do you see any improvements to folks mental health as a result of technology use? Because I know I'm concerned about my use as well, but there are some benefits, right? I have friends all over the country, all over the world, being able to text them and FaceTime them and, you know, send them memes on Instagram.

Like that stuff is fun and that stuff keeps us, it really does keep us connected in a way. So tell me about the benefits psychologically that you may see in this practice and, you know, of just using social media and media and technology in general, if there are any.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: I can relate to that very much. I think that it can foster connection

and I could give a couple of personal examples. You know, I, I train in a approach to therapy that, every year we do a retreat and there's people from all over the world and I'm able to stay connected with them on a WhatsApp chat.

And then we do zoom calls regularly. And we're in the doctor's office waiting and you can text your cousin really quickly and you can stay kind of in a certain level of connection with people. There's a lot of networking and career related things. And I don't want to downplay too the benefits of stimulation, entertainment, distraction, escape, even dissociation, right?

I mean, sometimes many of us need to simply disconnect, so to speak, or be, be entertained. There's obviously also a lot of good information that we can access through technology. There's all the AI things that are happening that have some, some dangers and some, a lot of potential benefits. And I think that

a lot of it might have to do with how we go about using these things. I know we're going to talk about that in, in a minute, we're titling this, healthy uses of technology. And another word I like to use is a skillful use of technology because sometimes I ask myself am I using this tool or these tools or are these tools using me? It can get to a certain point where if it's so obsessive and compulsive and automatic, and it's getting in the way of connecting with myself, connecting with my higher values, if it's blocking me from a deeper meaning, if I'm using it to cure loneliness, but then it ends up making me more isolated, which is something I see a good amount with clients in therapy is that, without the technology, they would feel very lonely, but then they get addicted to the technology, and now they're really, really lonely.

But they're kind of numbed from it, and it becomes this kind of paradoxical cycle. I think all the things you mentioned, I think connection, stimulation, accessing all kinds of information and art, I think those are all beautiful things about technology. And also kind of, leveling the playing field some in terms of everybody with an internet connection having access to a lot of great art and information and science that maybe in the past only elites had access to.

Host: Hmm. Mm hmm. No, I love that perspective. Thank you for sharing. Before we get into some suggestions for harnessing our social media and technology use, I'd love to expand on something you said. You said there are some benefits in your view to maybe that disconnection or you know, scrolling to really decompress after the day.

Can you tell us about some of those benefits, because I feel like those are always brought up as reasons why technology is, you know, quote unquote, ruining society or something like that.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Right, right, yeah. Which I, I was reading too that they also said that about books when books first came out. Books were the new tech, because that was a technology that it was going to keep people from being out and connecting with each other and working and doing good things and action that was going to make everybody get in their heads and everything.

Every new technology that comes around, that you know, tends to come up, but, well, I think that human beings need rest and I believe human beings are storytellers and you know, going way back when, you know, we sat around the campfire and told stories and meaningful stories about existence and our life and what it means and how to live.

And just find very touching about human beings is that oftentimes we're either with people or we're thinking about people or we're watching something about people on a screen.

Right. So it kind of tells me something about us is that we care about ourselves and other people and the world, and we're always trying to figure things out, you know, and, so I think that, you know, cause someone comes home at the end of the day and they decompress and they watch people doing something on a screen, I think it's probably dates way back to let's rest by the fire and hear a story or something.

 I think that our world can be very challenging and stressful and there's a real emphasis on productivity and efficiency and proving yourself and being better, better, better all the time. And I think there's a need to, to disconnect.

So I think that that's one, one benefit. And I think there's a lot of great art and creativity and being done on all the films and shows and, and, and all that we, we love as humans.

Host: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. I know for myself personally, there's also that aspect of maybe the art, the music, the movies that I like maybe aren't the same as my in real life friends, you know? And then I can find people who do appreciate those art, movies, films, music, online. And then you're finding those connections whether it's on social media or a group chat or something like that and, you know, being able to find community in the things I like. And not necessarily maybe the people that are right around me, right?

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah, totally. I relate to that. Yeah.

Host: I love it. I love it. I'm sure our listeners are looking for some solutions. So if folks are struggling with their technology use, what are some suggestions that you have? And what exactly would we qualify as maybe struggling? I'm sure it's different from person to person, but is there anything that we could look out for?

Maybe, you know, I'm on social media and I go, Hey, it's been five hours straight. Maybe I'm hitting a breaking point or something like that.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah, I did, I did think about this, some suggestions. I mean, I should say that obviously, um, I'm not providing therapy to people who are listening, obviously, and, I also wanted to say hi, by the way, to any alumni that are listening to this, and I support you.

And if you're folks that I know, you know, I hope that you're doing well, and I hope to maybe see you at the alumni retreat. So something that comes up for me is, for one thing, exploring the idea of setting some limits. Because we do have to remember that, a lot of these things, whether it's the Netflix dramas or the social media, they are programmed to keep you there.

And every good storyteller wants to keep you engaged in the story, right? But they're doing it in a, in a way that can be pretty, pretty addictive. And so I do think we should ask ourselves, am I using this as a tool or is it using me?

Host: Mm-Hmm.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Because it's benefiting from keeping me there,

regardless of what's best for me.

So asking ourselves for some limits, and you know, that can be a whole subject, depending on how challenging that is, or what comes up for you, it might need to be worked with with a therapist, and there's no, shame in that. You might have to give yourself some type of reward for limiting your social media use, for example.I think we might also consider looking at the actual content we're looking at. So I think for many of us, I've encountered this in myself and with clients, is that there's maybe levels of depth of information or art in what we consume. People might have their guilty pleasures. And then they might have things that they feel like challenge them a little more.

And I think that's something we're thinking about is because I, I do believe as human beings, we need a mix of pleasure and we need challenge. We need growth, right? And if it's all pleasure, all candy, it's going to be addicting, but it's not going to be healthy or satisfying. So I think no one can really tell anybody else probably what that content is, but you might find that there's a difference somehow for you between, I'll just pick an example, from someone I know.

There's a difference between when you're listening to Britney Spears and you're listening to Beethoven or something, for a given person. I'm not saying one is better than the other. You might find one is a little more challenging, and it, I get a little more satisfaction, or I, I, I feel more confident or smarter or I can go off in my life and be a little more present and one is more for an escape and for fun and pleasure.

Something like that. So I think looking at the content you're looking at, a lot of people are noticing when they watch too much news, they get agitated or depressed, but they end up watching tons of it. So it's like, well, maybe there's a limit. Maybe it's a half an hour of news a day, followed by a meditation app, or followed by watching a philosopher talk about something.

Just figuring out the levels of content for you.

I'm a big fan, too, of checking in with the body. That can be triggering for some folks and might not be safe. But I think for a lot of folks it is safe, it might be uncomfortable, but I always remember a philosophy professor in college challenged us, he said, sometime this week, just sit in a chair for 10 minutes.

He said, try not to think about anything, try not to figure anything out, try not to daydream or eat or drink anything, try to sit in a chair for 10 minutes. And of course, it was utterly impossible, for some, and very challenging for most, and the only way I've been able to do that is when I sit in the chair to notice sensation in the body, notice what it feels like on the bottom of the feet, notice myself breathing, notice any tension, kind of get in touch with ourselves.

I think that, that's one way to do it. Another way, I think, is to kind of meditate a little bit on what really matters most to me in life. How am I willing to live my life? Are there any ways I want to grow? Who and what do I really love? What does the world need more of?

 Asking ourselves these things, and for me, I can share a personal thing. I have some rules around particularly social media and YouTube, because I can spend a lot of time on those two things.

Host: Yep.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: So, I have some rules. I don't look at it first thing in the morning. I don't look at it last thing at night. And I don't look at it randomly throughout the day. So my, my discipline might be a little bit extreme, but I don't look at it automatically when I'm bored, lonely, anxious, guilty, envious, whatever. Cause I noticed that's when I was going to it. I try to go into it a couple times a day with some intention.

Like I'm, I'm going into this, to distract myself, to have some pleasure. It's going to be a certain amount of time and I'm going to stop versus the random, the random, the random, the random, the random, the random, because it is designed to make you, if you just start doing it automatically, you will end up doing it more than you want it to, because it's programmed that way.

I'm not saying other people should do that, but that is what I do.

Host: No, and like you said, it really is personal, right? Depending on what I'm trying to limit, what I'm trying to get out of my social media and technology use. And I think it's really important to, like you said, kind of tune into when you're reaching for your phone or that remote or putting on that movie, is it just playing in the background because you don't want your thoughts, or do you really just want to watch a movie?

Those are very different intentional ways to consume media. So I think those are really, really, really important and probably difficult to implement, but you know, important to know and maybe, and maybe slowly but surely figure out how to build into your life. Well, Chris, I've loved this conversation today and I just want to know if there's anything that we didn't touch on, technology use and social media and, you know, harnessing its hold on our lives and our attention is a really, really big and hard topic to cover in one podcast. But is there anything, any last, final words you kind of wanna leave for folks who are maybe struggling right now?

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah, I do. And I want to say I definitely don't have a hundred percent success rate with that, uh, discipline I said.I do want to leave with a couple of things. If it feels dangerous to you to let go of technology use, don't do it.

Meet with a therapist, work on it. There are therapists that specialize in this. It is a thing. You're not alone. A lot of, I mean. Darn near everybody I talk to feels like they use technology more than they should or want to. So, I would just say that sometimes if it's between harming yourself or staying on social media, stay on social media, but get help with it.

The other thing I'll say on the other side of that coin is I'm going to issue a little bit of a challenge to those that feel up to it. And this is, uh, my subjective thing. I'm going to issue a little bit of a challenge. So something I see a lot of is in groups of people, they got the smartwatch, they got the smartphone, and you see it that whenever they get a little bored with whoever's talking, or the way the meeting is going, or whatever, they go to their watch, or they go to their phone.

And I think sometimes it's even done a little passive aggressively, which is something we didn't talk about, which is communicating a little bit that I have better things to do, or I'm more important than this or whatever I would just challenge us to whenever you're around another human, try to be human and try to avoid looking at your device.

I think that a lot of issues we're seeing, I think there's kind of a crisis of a lack of deep connection. And I think sometimes we're online all the time because we're seeking that connection, but I don't think we can get the deepest levels of connection through a computer or through a, through a screen. I think we miss opportunities when we're with each other, including, and maybe even especially with someone that's a little bit boring us or they have a different opinion or whatever, I think it would be better to start for those that feel up to it, challenging ourselves in that way. So I just wanted to put that out there.

Host: Yeah, of course it's important and you know, we get so sucked into our, our routines, I know mine involves checking my email within minutes of waking up and that's something I'm trying to break, you know, knowing I don't need to start my day as soon as I open my eyes. Um, and just kind of, yeah, realizing that, you know, letting myself slow down, letting myself ease into the day.

Work is not starting at 6 a. m. when I wake up. but that's just a pattern I fell into and it's, you know, many patterns are hard to break, regardless of what they are. But I think, you know, you definitely offered some really great suggestions here today. And I thank you for the time and thank you for being with us.

Chris Bradshaw, MA, LAC: Yeah. Thank you, Caitlin. I appreciate it.

Host: And this has been My Miracle Radio by Sierra Tucson Alumni Relations. For more information, please visit sierratucson.com. I'm Caitlin Whyte. Thank you so much for listening.