Ngozi Ezike, MD (Host): Hello, everyone. I'm Dr. Ngozi Ezike, and I want to thank you for tuning in to More Than Medicine. This podcast is about the fight for health equity and justice, how we need to work to not just heal wounds, but truly address the root causes of hurt and distress in our communities and our nation. On this episode, we're talking to one of Sinai Chicago's own, Dr. Pierre Johnson. Dr. Johnson is an OBGYN specialist. He specializes in high risk obstetrics, minimally invasive gynecologic surgery, and pelvic floor repair. His mission is to eradicate disparities in healthcare. Dr. Johnson is native to Chicago, a Southsider, who from early childhood pledged to become a physician and fight to eradicate health disparities. He plans to do this by sharing his knowledge and skills with those in need. We're so excited to welcome you. Thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Johnson.

Pierre Johnson, MD: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

Host: Yeah, so let's kick it off. I always like to just have listeners learn a little bit more about our very special guest. Can you tell us like how you got started into medicine? How did you land on this field?

Pierre Johnson, MD: So it started for me very, very young. So, as a child, growing up on the South side of Chicago, I knew that I wanted bigger things. At the time I, it was to play professional basketball or play professional baseball, you know, it was childhood dreams. And I had an aunt that challenged me very early and said that I had to come up with a plan B.

 And she would not leave me alone. Like, she said, every time I see you, you have to come up with a plan B. And at the time I just said, you know, well, I don't know what I want to do. And it just came and I just said, I want to be a doctor. And really the only positive thing in my life that was going on at the time, you know, was the Cosby show.

So it was just an early imprinting in my mind, that there was a man that was taking care of his family, taking care of the community. He was an OBGYN. That was my plan B at the time. And, I was very fascinated with childbirth just from an early age. And my mom was pregnant with my, brother at nine years old.

And that the entire physiology and process of pregnancy was extremely fascinating to me. So, as I got older, it just became a passion of mine for women's health. You know, I grew up in a single, family home with my mom, who had battled drug addiction, battled a lot of different things. I had to, you deal with welfare as early, when I was a kid. It was very poor conditions and poor medical conditions and sort of seeing the things that my mom went through, it just kind of propelled me to want to not only help women, but help my community as well. And then just so my, just my desires just grew, the older I got. I realized that I was very talented with my hands. I started cutting hair at a very early age and was a barber, before medical school. I'm actually cutting in a barbershop and I just realized that I had just a, a knack for precision. And so the gynecologic aspect of OBGYN was very fascinating to me because, I found the niche in which I could, utilize my skills from my hands, very well.

So that's where it started. And it just evolved after that.

Host: That's amazing. I mean, there's so much there that I'm just so excited to, to really talk about. First of all, that whole story is really highlighting how it's hard to dream of something that you haven't seen. And so just even the images that you saw on your TV on Thursday night, I remember the Cosby show of seeing a black man, as an OBGYN, like literally, led you to where you are.

And so those images are just critical in terms of what we see and what that allows us to dream of. So that is so powerful. And, really that aunt, you know, like having those role models in your life that, tell you to think about different options, that encourage you and push you. I know I hope that aunt is around to see how her guidance has really led you and wherever she is, I know she is so excited for how you've been able to make that plan B be an incredible mission not just for you, but the entire community. So amazing stuff. So when you think about what you saw and how you thought that I want to be that person I see on TV, what do you think you are doing for that next generation of physicians or would be physicians or other people who need to think about a plan B?

Pierre Johnson, MD: Well, I'm, showing people who look like me or come from places, that are underserved and, where they don't see doctors and lawyers or, or people in these prominent spaces that look like them. I'm showing them that you can be authentically you you and stay true to yourself, true to your community and still move into these spaces of excellence.

 A lot of times these positions look very far fetched because there's not anyone that they can truly relate to, that actually, looks like him, that comes from a place that they come from, that are in these spaces. And, you know, when they go to the hospitals or, heaven forbid has to have legal guidance or anything like that from a professional space; it's often someone that they can't relate to. So I am showing them that no matter where you come from, that if you want this, you can make it happen and that you don't have to change yourself for anyone. Everyone else can conform to who you are.

So that aspect is what I'm, was one thing that I'm showing the next generation. And in addition to that, it's also being true to your community and true to your roots. I've made a point to not leave my community. I made staying very true to what my goals and what my focus were as a 10 year old kid on the South side of Chicago, coming back to Chicago, serving my community and making not only Chicago better, but trying to make lanes for other communities similar throughout the country and doing that in a very direct and deliberate way, through social media, through outreach, through public speaking, and just being very intentional about changing the narrative, and eradicating healthcare disparities. So I'm just showing, kids that all of the things that you know are wrong in this country, all of the things that you want to see change, that you can actually go and make those changes, not only for yourself or your family as well as your community.

Host: That's fantastic. And you, you clearly are an amazing role model. And so, using all the avenues that are available to you to make sure that people know about you, that people can see you, that people can connect and relate with you, that's super important. And I know one of the avenues that you've used, include, co-authoring a book.

 So, can you tell us a little bit about your book, Pulse of Perseverance, The Three Black Doctors on Their Journey to Success.

Pierre Johnson, MD: So my passion is such an exciting thing. One of my biggest accomplishments in life. So myself and two of my brothers, that I met at Xavier University, as 18 year old kids that were completely lost, myself, not even knowing what a periodic table was when I went to college, just coming from Chicago public schools and just unprepared for the future and the task of becoming a physician and understanding what the mentality is and what the obstacles and the hurdles that, that myself and my brothers have overcome to get to where we're at, had to have a story. So, and have to have a story that we could tell the world. So, when we went through our struggles, we were literally clinically depressed as freshmen, in college because we knew we had dreams, but, we just didn't have a way to get there.

So we formulated a bond and dug deep amongst our inner circle to push ourselves to get to our dreams. And once we actually got there, we knew that we couldn't just go and just kind of rest on our laurels and just be happy about it. We had to make a change and be a conduit for these kids behind us in these similar positions and spaces to get to this point.

So we, wrote, no ghost writers. No, nothing. We wrote Pulse of Perseverance and self-published it and it did extremely well. We got on some major platforms, ABC World News, the Today Show, Steve Harvey show, that allowed us to, 1, create a you know, just a huge following.

And then the book sales we've utilized every dollar that we made off that book for scholarships. We've given a monthly scholarship, every since, September of 2018, until the current day, where we've given a deserving kid, the resources that they need, to propel to futures and their dreams to, continue the Pulse of Perseverance.

And now, what we've done is, we're in the process of creating a mentoring app, and in that mentoring app we got a large grant funding, in which we're creating this app that's going to revolutionize mentorship to where now someone as busy as ourselves as you, so as you are, Dr. Ezike, the barrier to mentorship is time.

So taking an app, which will be the 1st mentoring app of its kind, and allowing you to take 2 minutes, just to do a video about your day and to do what you do and what it's like to be you and to be able to touch thousands of kids through that app. And then, more importantly, this app is going to link these kids and these spaces, because what we do is, you know, we go out and talk to kids and tell them to surround yourself by like minded individuals kind of like we did. But, you know, in some of these spaces, they don't have any like minded individuals. So linking that kid from South side of Chicago to that kid from Compton, and allowing them to form these, eco-centers of knowledge and support so they can push themselves to that, to that higher level.

And then also exposing them to things that they didn't know, because like myself, I didn't know what I didn't know. You know, I wanted to play professional sports because that's what I thought success was. So for that kid that wants to play professional sports, diving into his mind and show him that there's a whole world in sports. Managers, agents, things that they have absolutely no idea or access to, and now actually giving them access to people in spaces that look like them and can mentor them and guide them to those places.

So very, very excited about it. But yeah, that's what I'm doing. It's one of one of the biggest things that, of my life and what I'm extremely passionate about.

Host: I mean, that's incredible. I mean, you're, you're doing so much. You're trying to give back, while you're actively taking care of patients. You are giving life, to our line here at Sinai Chicago that more than medicine, it's personal. And you are investing every part of yourself to help not just say, yeah, look, I did it, I made it, here, my brothers and I made it, but how are we going to make sure that we pave the way and create that lane for people to come up behind us?

And you're doing it in all these creative ways, telling your story, using social media, creating the app, which ultimately just expands the realm of possibility for people who maybe had a very narrow focus in terms of what they thought the possibilities were. So, the gift, that you are providing to our communities.

And you mentioned, you know, you can give somebody, connect somebody from the South side with Compton. And it's funny cause I'm from south central LA and, and so really thinking about how those communities are the same, even though they're, you know, 2,000 miles apart. That's how you bridge the gap and really create, more opportunities for people to dream much bigger.

 You know, I want to talk a little bit about how your, who you are and what you represent, how that plays into the healthcare that you give. We know that there's a dearth, a scarcity of physicians of color, specifically, black physicians, specifically black male physicians. And so when you, think about how that affects, some of the patients of color that you interact with, what do you see that is, unique or special in that interaction?

Pierre Johnson, MD: It's extremely unique because most of the time when I see patients, I'm like a breath of fresh air. It's not to say that patients can't receive care, high quality care from people that don't look like them, but there is such a mistrust of the medical system. And that comes from centuries of just abuse of black and brown people and those stories have trickled down over generations. And so, you know, you have, many people that have the mentality of just not trusting doctors, not trusting medicine as you saw Dr. Ezike looking at, you know, the whole COVID task force and, and trying to get people to take vaccines is just a complete mistrust and that that comes down from some of the atrocities that have happened to our culture, throughout time.

So, as I approach, many of my patients, I oftentimes hear that, like, they've been told that they had no options, that they were not able to get to some of the goals and things that they have for their lives and their health. So by the time they get to me, it's just like someone that actually listens, someone that looks like me, that's going to take not only the pride of making sure that they're okay, but also that's going to listen to everything, take their goals into consideration, take their desires and the things that they really, really want into complete and consideration. So, I just feel that our jobs, as conduits to get better care for our communities is so very vital and important.

Because we are just the pathway for these patients to feel comfortable with medicine, to be able to divulge things that they wouldn't normally divulge to people because of that comfort level and the ability to be able to relate to situations, relate to their life is priceless. It's something that we don't test for in medical school, the residency that we have no metric to show. We do have metrics. Actually, we have metrics to show, but we just don't put the emphasis on how important those are as it pertains to quality care and providing quality care in communities that are in so desperate need.

Host: It's so critical and, you know, there is a lot of qualitative research out there that says that people do feel, more comfortable, so given that this healthcare relationship is such a partnership, if there's not trust between the partners, you're not going to get the best result. So it's very important that people can feel comfortable. And, and we know how, just having someone that looks like you, how that fosters that. I want to talk specifically, about work that you are a leader in, and that's related to, fibroids. And actually, your name is the Fibroid Slayer, and this is a very important, topic because we do know that, African American women are diagnosed almost three times more with fibroids than their white counterparts. And we know the significant impact that this has on fertility, on having a regular versus a high risk pregnancy once you do get pregnant. So, really talk about your work in this area.

Pierre Johnson, MD: This work is so extremely vital and important to me, because again, the things that we have went through as a culture; a book that really, really touched my, my soul and my spirit, was Medical Apartheid and just understanding that for OBGYN, a majority of all of the procedures, the processes, the recommendations, the guidelines were really created off the back of slaves and black women.

 Slave women were held down and they had experimental surgeries with no anesthesia, for generations. This is how modern gynecology was created. And so understanding the historical and the social context of how medicine has impacted our culture and our communities, really, really resonates with me as far as how that relates to the health care inequities and disparities and how I can be a vessel of change because, it's a known fact that, two thirds of hysterectomies of all hysterectomies are still performed in Southern states. Hysterectomies used to be considered the black woman's appendectomy. I watch and I look and I hear cries from women all over the country, that by the time they come to me have said they've been to 5, 10, 15 doctors that have all said that they did not have options to preserve their wombs to for future fertility, that they had to have hysterectomies, that they had to have vertical incisions, that were not only, caused a lot of pain and recovery, infection, and bleeding; just a lot of things that we would think that are happening, you know, in 18, 19 hundreds, but are happening happening in the 2000s and beyond.

And so, you know, for me, being the voice of women and being able to understand that you have options and giving women options and not only giving them options, but educating them so that they can know what's right and what's wrong. And when someone is not looking out in their best interest and giving them the, now equipping them with the tools that they need to actually get the care that they deserve.

So, for me, fibroid surgery is just that. It is taking care of our women and giving them the care that they need because, 8 out of 10 women, black women have fibroids and a large portion of those, a quarter of those women are going to need some form of care or treatment for those fibroids and are often not given the options that they need. So I've taken a, just a personal goal mission to eradicate the disparities that they are experiencing, but to give them and also give them the options that they deserve.

Host: No, that's incredible. And I don't think that all of our listeners would know that you literally have people, women who fly from all across the country to find you, to get this care because, what you are offering is transformational in terms of telling a woman, no, you don't have to give up your womb and say goodbye to having children or additional children.

So this is transformational and you're actually making a significant deposit into the next generation by allowing a woman to procreate. So this is an extremely important work and we're really excited to have you here at Sinai Chicago where you can really, give people, women the chance to live out their dream of motherhood and parenting.

So, kudos to you and thank you for making this so personal and really making some generational transformational changes for people from what the status quo is.

Pierre Johnson, MD: And it was so, it was so important to actually bring it to Sinai. And to your point, Sinai is one of the last remaining vessels of excellence that we have in our community. As a Southside kid, I actually did not even know Sinai existed. It's a travesty to hear that, but it was true, because I was, you know, I was born at Mercy hospital, which is now closed. So if you look at the Southside of Chicago, it's a desert as far as health care for our community. You know, you have University of Chicago, but other than that, Mercy hospital was 1 of the last remaining things. So I was looking for a place in which was rooted in Chicago, and the communities of Chicago that desperately needed the care and where I wanted to bring my skills to not only help the community, but also bring all of these people that are coming in from all over the country so that they can have that care in this community too. So it's extremely important to me to be doing this at Sinai.

Host: Yeah, it's incredible. We're so glad that you are doing the work that you're doing. You're one person and you're really trying to amplify and multiply your reach with all the different things that you're doing when you're, when you're not in the operating room or in the clinic, what are things that we need to get other physicians and other clinicians involved with to help further the work, you know, you're one person, but we need everybody rowing in the same direction to turn around some of these inequities. What do you think other people can do to be a part of this important work to achieve the equity and the justice that we should have?

Pierre Johnson, MD: Excellent question and I get that all the time and, you know, it's definitely never to be exclusive of people that are not from the culture. You know, I think that as it relates to change, not only in our communities, but in our entire society, in our country, it's all hands on deck and to understand that the historical context matters, like we can't run from the things that have happened because we can't create change for the future without understanding why things are the way they are. So, for anybody that really wants to promote change and to be a vessel or agent for change, you have to really understand the context and the historical context of medicine in our society. And once you grasp that and understand that and become empathetic to that, then you have the energy that it takes to be able to now formulate change. And that's the biggest issue that I see in our society is that we've tried to run away from the bad things that, that we've, that are in the fabric of our country. We try to ignore them and we try to just say, well, let's just make it better. We're here now, but no, we can't do that. We have to be able to accept that things were happening, accept that our communities really feel a level of mistrust, through things that have happened, talking about Tuskegee experiment, you talking about slaves having to go through the Freedmen's Bureau and all of those things that have happened in our country, understanding them, being empathetic to them, and now, having the knowledge and the energy to be able to make the changes that we need.

Host: As you speak about energy and I think about all the work that you're doing, do you feel tired of this work or where, how do you recharge and renew yourself so you can keep tackling all these important things and making the difference and creating scholarship opportunities for those to come behind you, all of this.

Pierre Johnson, MD: Change is my, is my rejuvenator, like when I actually see the things that I'm doing, actually starting to make the actual changes that I'm trying to do, like just even being here at Sinai for, you know, these past few months and watching how the hospital is growing, how we're, the energy is shifting at this hospital, it's invigorating for me and it gives me energy. So yeah, I may take a little mini mental break vacation here or there, but I want to get back to the work. I don't want to stop the momentum. So that for me, that's really very key. I like to work until I see the change and that's what fuels me.

Host: I love that. Change is my rejuvenator. We're going to have to get that put up in lights somewhere. I love that. I love it. So as we think about what you are, obviously, you're invigorated and rejuvenated by seeing the progress and seeing change, what are the things that make you stay hopeful, make you stay, like excited about the, about the future?

Pierre Johnson, MD: I will say that the energy from not only people that I help, but future generation through mentoring and Pulse of Perseverance; like, I see that there are legions of brilliant kids that are behind me that are thirsty to get into these spaces and really want to see guidance and it's just more and more kids like they have more access now. When we were in, you know, high school, college, like we didn't have the internet like that. We didn't, we didn't have like the ability to have all of this knowledge at your fingertips, and to now have that happen and have these kids have access to that is so very awesome. It's allowing, it gives that gateway for the floodgates to get kicked open, if you will, and that's what it's all about.

It's really, now going through things, going through trials and tribulations, and then started to create the avenues and changes so that the next generation doesn't have to go over all these hurdles and obstacles. And now we can have more equity in these spaces, you know, we are 13%, speaking of, of African Americans, 13 to 14% in this country, but in every space of professionalism, we're less than 5%, whether it be law, engineering, or any type of professional space that we have in this country, it's just not equitable.

So as long as that's there, we know that change needs to happen and to have these kids that are really, really motivated to make it happen and to have people in places like yourself, that's you know, it's just a CEO hospital it's a, have a young woman that is thriving to get into these spaces to even see you, to see me, it makes it completely different than when I was a kid and didn't see these people. So that is really, really important.

Host: I totally hear what you're saying. You know, I think you like me the first doctor in the family. Like we've never had a doctor in my family on either side and, to be able to tell people, show people, I see the look on people's face when they see that you're actually the, the doctor and, and what that means and what that conveys, but like you, like, we're not satisfied with just getting there. We're trying to understand how, you know, instead of being the first person to do this, we want to concentrate on how do we get the second and the, and the third, you know, and the fourth. Like, we want to keep going until it's not even a thing that we are as well represented as other groups, so that it's expected and commonplace to see us in all of these spaces and spheres.

And I think you are doing tremendous work to move us in that direction. And we're excited for the work that you're doing at Sinai Chicago and making things more equitable for individuals and ultimately for our community. So I want to maybe just leave off with any final pieces of advice that you would give to that you from, 30 years ago, maybe a young person living on Chicago's South side, what would you tell them? That person that says, I think I want to be a doctor too.

Pierre Johnson, MD: I would tell that kid that always dream big and always to keep your goal as the forefront and if you do not have a goal, because, uh, you know, I was fortunate enough to, to develop a goal very early, take 2 to 3 weeks out of your schedule and out of your time of playing on the internet, to doing social media, whatever, and create a goal. It is so very important to do that because you create a finish line and a goalpost to get there.

And if you've never, if you decide that that may not be the avenue, you're going to create another goal. That's 1st and foremost. The 2nd thing I would tell them is, is that understand that you are smart enough. Trust me. You are intelligent enough to do this. The world will make you believe that you're not, but you're, you are more than intelligent enough to do it.

This game is about standardized testing and other hurdles and obstacles that keep the numbers where they're at. So understanding that take, the understanding how to play the game and the game is, starting to address address standardized testing very, very early. I wish someone would have told me that as a 14, 13, 12 year old kid that standardized testing would be, the Achilles heel that I would need to get over.

The third thing I would tell him is, is you have to surround yourself by like-minded people. If you look at your circle of friends, you can pretty much dictate, you could pretty much predict where your future is going to be at. So, if your circle is not reflective of what your future is supposed to look like, then you need to change your circle.

And just always continue to believe in yourself, put 100% belief and effort into yourself. You know, I hear kids say all the time, well, college is going to be expensive. I got to take out loans or what have you. You will have plenty of money to do what you need to do and pay off those loans tenfold, if you win. If you bet on yourself and win. So you got to sit at the table, put all the chips in and bet on yourself. And once you do that and your dreams come to fruition, everything, any loan or anything else you took out, will be able to be paid without any problem, but you have to bet on yourself and put everything in, put your a hundred percent in, and win the game. You know, at the end of the day. So those are the things that I would tell these young kids. Find someone. The last but not least is that now you do have space, people in these spaces. I wish I would have had someone like myself that was accessible that I could reach out to, you know, as a 14, 15 year old kid, to be able to just talk to.

Fnd them. They're out here, you know, and if \ we put it out there for as, as Pulse of Perseverance, but there are other entities that are out here that are putting mentors and people that look like you in these spaces of success that are out here for you. You need a mentor, you need someone to help you and show you the way and be very humble and be very receptive to teaching and how you get into these spaces. So that's my advice for these kids.

Host: I mean, just, I could let you continue preaching because there such a good word in that. I mean, look at what we heard. We heard, put your phone down, put your video games down and set some goals. I heard like know that you are more than enough. You know, I heard watch who's in your circle. Make sure you are surrounding yourselves with the kind of people that are going to help you get to where you want to go. I heard just, you know, believe in yourself, bet on yourself. And finally, you ended with find a mentor. And, you know, with these apps and with these different organizations that are trying to connect successful people who might be in the roles that you want to be like, that's getting easier and easier.

But I think that's an incredible blueprint, for that young person that wants, knows where they want to get, and just needs the tools. I think that five step plan will probably get them there. So thank you for that. That was, that was incredible wisdom. That was incredible wisdom. So I just, I want to thank you, Dr. Johnson. I want to thank you for joining me. I know you have a very busy schedule. I know you're in and out of surgeries, and I just I'm grateful that you went into this field of work. You know, we obviously need more physicians like you. We need you at Sinai and we, we need people that are so passionate about the work that they do, that are, intense about trying to eradicate the disparities and are so intentional about giving back to the community.

And I love that you're giving back specifically to the community that you grew up in. Your story is completely inspiring. I just, I thank you for sharing it. And I thank you for sharing it with all of our listeners.

Pierre Johnson, MD: And I thank you. And I have to give you your flowers as well. And though we didn't even meet until few months ago, I knew all about you, through just the COVID task force. And I was in awe of not only the position you were in and the work that you did. So when I actually, when people reached out to me about Sinai and I learned about it and I heard that you were here, that was one of the catalysts to actually make me come here. So I thank you, for everything that you're doing. And I thank you for just staying true to the culture and the community, because you could be anywhere, you have the credentials and the experience to be in any high space, or hospital or any, anywhere you want to be in the city. You came to Sinai for a reason, and I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And I, and I thank you for everything you're doing.

Host: We've got a lot of work to do and I'm, I'm excited to be doing this work with you. So thank you so much.

Pierre Johnson, MD: Absolutely.

Host: You too.

Scott outro: Thank you for listening to More Than Medicine with Dr. Ngozi Ezike. If you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to Sinai Chicago's YouTube channel, as well as follow @SinaiChicago on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram for information on upcoming podcasts. Until next time.