Abby Fox (Intro): Welcome to the Still Caring Podcast, presented by Stillwater Medical.

Joe Akin (Intro): Here, community is at the heart of healthcare.

Katon Lunsford (Intro): Through honest conversations and shared experiences

Abby Fox (Intro): we explore what it means to care for our health—

Joe Akin (Intro): and each other.

Katon Lunsford (Intro): Because better health takes a village and you're part of ours.

Joe Akin (Host): Today's Still Caring episode is deeply personal. Our guest, Alane Zannotti, is someone many people in Stillwater know through her leadership, her service, and her involvement in our community. But today isn't about titles or accomplishments. Today is about family. It's about mental illness, addiction, shame, grief, suicide, and the things families often carry silently behind closed doors.

For a long time, Alane didn't talk publicly about her brother or what her family experienced. Today, she's choosing to share her story because she believes honesty can help other people feel less alone.

Hello, I'm Joe Akin, and I'm glad you're part of this conversation. Alane, thank you for being willing to have this deeply personal conversation with us.

Alane Zannotti: You're welcome. I'm honored to be able to tell my story.

Host: So Alane, as you said, this is your story. So, why don't you just start at the beginning and just tell us about your family and growing up together?

Alane Zannotti: Sure. Well, I was an only child my first five years of life. So, we were a family of three, very close-knit. I'm adopted. I was adopted at seven days old. My parents realized they weren't able to have children on their own. So, first five years, only child. And then, when I was five, my parents thought, "You know, we'd like to have another child as well." And so, they decided to go through the adoption process again. And there was a little boy who had been in the foster system his first three years of life, so he was three years old. And they had some family visits. And he came and visited, and good time, and they decided to adopt him.

And I can remember being excited I was going to get a little brother, because I just was excited about that possibility and adding to the family. But I remember, Joe, the very first night he came to stay with us, his first night home, and he just had not had any type of boundary set or any type of discipline, if you will. And it was time to go to bed, and he screamed as loud as I'd ever even heard a child scream. You would've thought he was being beaten. He was just devastated that he had to go to bed when he didn't want to go to bed, I will always remember that night. I'm going to be 57 this year. And that night, my parents were at a loss, because I was a fairly easygoing child. They hadn't had to deal with a child like this before. I think all of a sudden my parents thought, "Okay, we may have had a child that has had some—you know, first three years of life, we know nothing about what had happened. He'd been foster home to foster home." And so, that kind of began our journey as a family to kind of figure out what to do next.

And so, kind of fast-forward through the years and growing up as a young child, my brother just was a very challenging child. He had not been potty trained. He had not had any type of family life. And so, very disconnected, if you will. I was a child who always wanted to be around my parents, just always wanted to, you know, be around family. And then, my brother was just someone who was very different. We played together as little kids as you do. But we just were very, very different children.

And I remember when he started school, it was painstakingly for my parents because he was very, very smart. He was a very smart child, but got bored easily, got in trouble in school all the time. Challenged with that. And then, he had many discipline problems, even at home. He Just didn't like to obey rules. My poor parents were trying their best to raise us both the same way and that just couldn't happen. Because, you know, they could just look at me and, you know, I would behave, and my brother was like, "Pff, whatever," you know?

And so, I think I began to realize that my family life was a little bit different than my friends. I just realized it was a very—I don't want to say it was an unstable family life, but you just never—my parents were very stressed. They were young parents, and I think just trying to navigate a child that was very challenging.

And then, you get into the teen years and that begins the challenge of those things that we all as teenagers and others deal with and the kind of the introduction of alcohol. And my parents had found out when they did adopt Dan, my brother, that he was born a heroin-addicted baby. And so, you kind of compound that with the challenges that he was having. And as they found out more and tried to go into counseling and figure out some things to help him, that helped navigate a little bit and answer some questions.

But he already had some kind of predestined, conditions that I think when he got to his teenage years, all of a sudden experimented a little bit with drugs, but his main thing was alcohol. And once he started on that route, I would probably say he was probably 11 or 12 when he started, it really became a challenge.

I can remember my parents went to an event in an evening and came home and the truck was gone from the garage. My dad's truck was gone from the garage, and my brother had tried to drive it across Boomer Lake after having drinks, and he was 14, I think, at the time. So, I think there just were some things that kept going on with him that my parents were just kind of at a loss.

And the scary thing about my brother when he drank is he was a very, very nice person when he wasn't drinking. He just challenged the boundaries. But when he drank and got drunk, his personality changed 180. He was mean, he was angry, he was hateful. My brother never liked the fact that he was adopted. He always felt abandoned by his biological parents. And so, I think the alcohol brought that out in him. And so, I think it just magnified those things. He was violent. Just had some cases of violent tendencies. And as he got older, it was harder to discipline him, right? Because he was older.

And then, you fast-forward to kind of getting through those teenage years, and I wanted to do everything I could to be the good child, right? I saw my parents struggling. I saw them trying to navigate what it was like dealing with a child who challenged every ounce in them. So, I kind of stayed off the radar, if you will. I made sure I had good grades. I made sure I didn't get in trouble. I made sure I was doing things I was supposed to do. I was fortunate that I had a great high school group of friends, and we were really low-key, and that was really helpful for me.

Host: Can I ask you something, Alaine, right there?

Alane Zannotti: Yeah.

Host: So in that situation, did you feel pressure to be perfect, to be really, really good? Because what it sounds to me like is your parents were very overloaded and potentially overwhelmed with taking care of your brother, and you were the good child, so to speak. But along with that, you know, comes the pressure to be good. Was that part of what influenced you, is just wanting to not put more pressure on your parents? Or is that, in your opinion, that's just how you are?

Alane Zannotti: I think that's just how I am. I was always a child that never caused any waves anyway. And so, I think for me it wasn't the pressure that I had to be good. It wasn't like I wanted to do all these things, but I decided not to because I needed to be the good child. I think it was more for me of a realization of I'm watching my parents struggle. And so, I'm going to do everything I can to keep things calm. I was the calm one. I tried to make sure that if they were upset about something with Dan at school, then I was going to try and say, "Well, this happened and this was a positive." And so, not the pressure to be good, but it's just that pressure of just wanting to give them some peace and knowing that one of their children was—

And then, I think, it combats you against your sibling, right? Because they're seeing that. And I can remember Dan, you know, say, "Oh, well, you're the good one. You're the one that never gets in trouble. I'm the one who's..." And so, that doesn't help our relationship because he's frustrated that I'm not getting in trouble or doing the same things he is. And so, that became challenging for sure.

Host: So, what was it like for you guys living in a household where you never quite knew what version of your brother you were going to get?

Alane Zannotti: You know, I look back on that and I think, my goodness, it can either make or break a family, right? And I think, for us, it didn't break our family. However, I think of going to the Al-Anon meetings for alcohol, you know, for the drinking and trying to do counseling. And, you know, I think it helped us deal with it, but it takes a toll. And I don't think you realize the toll until this time in our life. Our family was not close in the sense, you know, you'd see a family photo and I could see behind those smiles that it wasn't a happy photo, right? We'd either try to get him to take a picture and he didn't want to, or they had to bargain with him to take the photo. It's just interesting how that all played out, for sure.

Host: So along those lines, one thing that families often don't talk about publicly is fear. And a minute ago you mentioned that there were times that he would get violent. Did you ever feel fear in your own household?

Alane Zannotti: You know, not so much in the teenage years. I think probably as he got older, maybe 17, 18, when he kind of, you know, got in the older teen years, yes. Because he got bigger and stronger, right, and drank more. And so, it definitely became violent at that point.

I think it was more anxiousness because when he was a teenager and drinking, the behavior patterns weren't necessarily super violent, but just combative. You know, he was he was going to challenge them at every single thing they said. And, you know, as a child, at some point, he would end up backing down just a little bit. But as a teenager, he didn't. So, very anxious. And you didn't know what was going to set him off. So, not having a lot of people over. I was grateful that there was two years of age difference between us because we were in school together in elementary school. But then once, we got into middle school and junior high and high school, the only time we were in the same school together was when I was a senior and he was a sophomore.

And so, it was a relief for me that people didn't know necessarily maybe that we were brother and sister or that I didn't have to. And that's a really sad thing to think about too as I look back on life and think, "Oh my goodness, I spent a lot of time trying not to make people know that that was my brother, the one that was getting in trouble all the time, and the one the cops could call by name because they knew him." So, yeah...

Host: Yeah. Sorry to have interrupted with your flow. Please keep me on mute.

Alane Zannotti: Not at all. Not at all. It's always interesting. Every time I tell the story, I hear a different piece of it. And so, it's good for me to have this. Dan got married and the woman he married also had addiction issues. And so, I think, that's not uncommon. And both couldn't hold down jobs. And so, I think my parents were trying to do what parents do and help support them when they could, give them money when they could. And then, it became a point of, "Well, we're not going to give you money. But if you need to go to the grocery store, we'll help you go to the grocery store and get food."

And so, I was grateful for that. But Dan continued on that path of drinking a lot. I mean, he he could drink a 24-pack of beer and be fine. I mean, maybe a little tipsy. But he was a very much a functioning alcoholic by this point. He did not finish high school. He did drop out of high school. I tell the story that, preparing for the ACT in high school, I took the preparatory class and I had my sharpened pencils and I was there early and refreshed and ready to take it and did not even make the legal drinking age on my ACT. And my brother took it with a hangover and made a 32. And so, I think he was brilliant. He was very, very smart. I just think, growing up in the '70s and '80s, there just weren't a lot of those—I mean, the gifted program or some of those things that some of these children now have opportunities to do just didn't exist when we were growing up.

And so, anyway, my parents encouraged him to go to Meridian Technology Center, as an adult, and I actually was working at Meridian Technology Center. That was my first job after graduating from Oklahoma State University. So, I encouraged him, "Come out to Meridian Technology Center and take the construction trades program," because he loved construction, he loved being outside. He was never going to be an office person ever. And he excelled. He excelled in that program, and won contests and was supposed to go to state contests. And I'll never forget the instructor calling me and saying, "Your brother has not shown up to get on the bus to go to contest." So, I went to his house, and sure enough, he had been on a drinking binge the night before and couldn't make it up. So, let the teacher down, let his class down. And he did finish the program, but it was painful. And I think probably because I worked at Meridian, there were probably some allowances given that gave him some second chances that maybe he wouldn't have had otherwise.

So, he definitely got into the construction business and did a lot of that around Stillwater. Still struggled, continued to struggle. We distanced ourselves at that point once he left Meridian. I think at that point as an adult, I decided I can't do this. This is too hard on me. My parents didn't have that luxury, if you will, and I don't think they were ready to yet. And so, they continued to try and help him when they could.

And so, I kind of stepped back a little bit and actually moved away from Stillwater for about 10 years. And during that time, he got really into harder alcohol, harder liquor, and ended up getting arrested. I think bounced some checks and did some things and ended up doing about 18 months in jail and sobered up because, you know, he had to do that.

And so, I moved back—and this is me, I'm kind of fast-forwarding—but about in a 10-year period, moved back to Stillwater. And I think he was trying his best to kind of get back on track, and I decided to open up a wine bar, which was very interesting as he does construction. He actually did the construction in the wine bar to provide a room and the backspace that now exists at Zannotti's Wine Bar. And he did it sober. There was a period of time and, and I thought, "Well, maybe this is a chance. Maybe this is an opportunity to do that."

And I think the challenges in life and the way he chose to make decisions were just very different. And unfortunately, he fell off the wagon and fell off big time and had suicidal thoughts at that point. He just would call extremely drunk and would threaten my parents and I that he was going to kill himself and do that sort of thing. More to my parents than to me. So just watching my parents cycle through all this. And it was just very interesting.

And at the time, I had a different last name, Zannotti, and he was still Johnson. So, I still made it very deliberate to keep us very separate. I was not letting people know he was my brother and doing that sort of thing, which still kind of makes me sad to this point. But I think it's the reality when you're dealing with the situation, you do try to distance yourself as much as you can when you've gone through so much.

Probably 2019, 2018, 2019, he had an opportunity to go out of state and do construction because he was doing really, really well, and he did do that. And there was a sense of relief, I think, for my parents and I that he was leaving, just because it kind of gave us a break a little bit from some of the drama. He still continued to drink a lot. He'd call, and my parents would talk to him. But 2020 COVID happened, and my dad died unexpectedly during that timeframe, and that hit my brother hard.

My dad and my brother were close. My mom was the person he'd call when he was drunk and angry and needed to talk, but my dad was the one he'd call when he needed money. And it's just interesting how that dynamic happened in our family. So when my dad passed away, I think it hit him really hard. We had a very small memorial service because it was during COVID. He went back to North Carolina and got extremely inebriated and drunk and picked a fight in a bar and got beaten so badly that he was in the ICU in North Carolina for a couple months. And of course, we couldn't go see him because it was COVID, so weren't able to see him.

And he did come back to Stillwater within a couple months after that, after he had recovered as much as he could, and he was different. I think he had some brain damage. And I just think he had just the combination of everything he'd done over the years, I think had caught up with him. And I remember the nurse talking to my mom on the phone saying, "He is extremely strong because he's going through withdrawals, and he is shaking so hard, and we're trying to calm him down, and he is just, extremely, extremely strong."

He wasn't the same when he got back, and he started showing up at, because I was working back at Meridian Technology Center at the time. And he would show up there drinking. And so, I'd have to get him off campus. He'd show up at my mom's house at 2:00 AM in the morning, drunk, pounding on the door. And so, our safety was a little bit of a concern at that point because he just was so angry. And he finally had one night too much to drink and was driving, I think, to go see my mom, and was stopped by the police and a police chase occurred. And he wrecked, some buildings in Stillwater and got arrested and went into the Payne County Jail.

And for any family who's gone through this, my mom and I were relieved. Two reasons. One is he had a safe place over his head, and he had three meals a day. He wasn't going to be able to hurt himself or others. And the other was we had peace because he wasn't going to show up unexpectedly anywhere where we were, because that's what he was known to do.

And he did serve, I think, it was almost—it wasn't quite a year. I think it was maybe 10 months, 11 months. And when he got out after that, my mom and I were just we didn't know what to expect. We didn't know what to do. And he sent a picture to both of us, and the picture still haunts me. I still have it on my phone. There's a smile on his face, and he said, "I'm going to get my life together." But the look on his face, something wasn't right.

And I'll never forget, I woke up October 21st, 2021 at, like, 3:30 in the morning, and it was going to storm. And I remember thinking, "Okay, I'm going to let the dogs out." At 3:30 in the morning, I let the dogs out. And so, I let the dogs out, and I was wide awake. I couldn't figure out why. And my mom called me at 4:15, and she said, "I unfortunately need to tell you that Dan died about an hour ago." Angie, his wife, just found him in the extra bedroom. He has died by suicide. And it was very odd because both my , mom and I were up, we were awake, and we were, you know... And I'm not really a superstitious person, but it just is odd that we were both up at the same time. And once again, very, very sad. But the relief of just it was over and maybe he found peace, right? And maybe he's with my dad and they're, you know, able to have the relationship that I think, you know, they both always wanted. So, anyway... Yeah.

Host: A couple of questions about some of what you just went through. But first about your brother. What do you think people were never able to really see in him because his issues kind of clouded their perception of him?

Alane Zannotti: Dan had a heart of gold. Dan would've given you his last dollar. He did. He would get money from us. And then if a friend needed it, he'd give it to his friend. I mean, Dan had a heart of gold, and he had a faith. It was interesting when he was in jail, he wanted a Bible. And he could quote the Bible. I mean, he had a faith. So it's funny how—not haha funny—but just interesting how he had those things that were so much a part of him, yet such an angry and nasty and hateful part of him also that I think probably was probably some mental health and then just some things that, you know, life with him, how he started. I think he just had some predestined things that happened.

Host: You'd mentioned it twice, once when he went to prison and then the second time after he was gone, that there was a sense of relief. And you and I had talked about this before because there are so many things that you're relieved of, and you described some of them, and you think that they have some peace, you have some peace. Along with that, was there almost a sense of guilt on your part because you felt that relief?

Alane Zannotti: You know, my mom and I to this day will still every once in a while say, we do feel guilty because it's very rare that we say we miss him, because I don't think we do in the sense that you miss like I miss my dad or I miss other people, because there was just such a rocky relationship.

So yes, there's a lot of guilt. And then, you think, "Well, could I have or would I have?" But quite honestly, I can say my parents did absolutely everything they possibly could. And so, I don't think there's any regrets or guilt that they didn't do that; and to some degree, me as well. But sure, I think there always will be, because I think anytime someone dies by suicide, you think, "What could I have done to help prevent that?" or "What could I have..." But then, you know, in our situation at the same time, we just think he threatened it so many times, I think probably deep down we both knew that Dan wasn't going to—I mean, he died at the age of 50. I think we both knew that he was not going to live a long time.

Host: Thank you for talking about that, because I know that's an incredibly complex set of emotions, but I think it's so helpful for people to hear that because so many times you do feel relief, but you don't want to tell anybody because you're going, "Oh, that just makes me bad." And it doesn't make you bad, it just makes you human.

But so many families going through things like this, they're carrying around, you know, these kinds of struggles and often become experts at hiding the pain or the embarrassment or any of that. Have you felt like your family did that?

Alane Zannotti: My parents were such good role models. I think that my parents were doing their best to deal with it. And sure, I think to some degree, they didn't want everyone to know. I think I did more of that. I think for me, yeah, I was trying to, create this facade that my family was, you know, yeah, we had some challenges, but we're doing okay and we're going to be all right.

And I think for me, I was trying to kind of smooth that over and make it seem a little bit more normal. To me, I wanted some normalcy. And so, I think I did more of that than my parents did.

Host: Having never dealt with it, hopefully none of us ever will, but what does—I'm not sure I'm phrasing this right, but what does suicide do to the people that are left behind?

Alane Zannotti: Yeah. Yeah. I think for my mom and I in this situation, he hadn't called that night before. I think for us, if he had called us in a drunken stupor saying, "I'm going to kill myself," or, "I'm going to..." you know, like he always did, I think we would've been better equipped to handle it.

I think we were still in a state of shock because that wasn't, I mean, he wanted to kind of get his life back on track. He had sent us that photo. He seemed calm, and maybe that was the telltale sign that we missed. But I think it's when you see the potential, I mean, Dan just had a lot of potential. And I think, for us, that's the sad part with suicides. You don't have the chance to try and encourage that or I mean, he purposely chose to end his life, and I can't imagine that thought process. and so that part's hard.

Host: So Alane, do you think that, along with the addiction, there were any mental health issues that were just making it that much more complicated or that much more severe of a situation?

Alane Zannotti: I think so. I think, you know, I think Dan as a youth, I mean, whether it was, based on what happened when he was born, being a drug-addicted baby, if that caused some issues with him to not bonding this first three years of life. I mean, not a connection. You know, could leave the family for a couple months and, not interact at all. Just not that connection. And then, I do think he had some bipolar because even before he started drinking, his mood swings could be just something else. And then, I just think the alcohol magnified it even more, when he had been drinking. So yes, absolutely.

And then, for sure, when he came home from after having the fight in the bar that caused some brain injuries, for sure, without a doubt. I think that probably magnified some things too with just some mental health, because he didn't process things the same way. He wouldn't have a complete thought sometimes. And then, just the way he dealt with things was very different.

Host: Yeah. And then, in today's world, especially with social media, people feel pressure to present their lives as being perfect. We don't tend to, you know, show our bad side on social media. Why do you think authenticity matters so much to you now?

Alane Zannotti: I think because, "Oh my goodness. You know, growing up, I wanted to—and it wasn't I wanted to create a perfect life, I just wanted it to seem normal, and whatever your normal is. And I think social media has magnified this need your life to be perfect. And I am very proud of how hard I've worked to do the things I've done and accomplished. And I've had people say to me, "You don't know what it's like to struggle," or, "You don't know..." I mean, because, you know, well, we don't, right? We don't know everyone's story. Never make assumptions about things. And so, I really try to, on my social media, be very real and honest. And if I have bad days, I have bad days, and I don't have the perfect house, I don't have the perfect, you know, whatever.

But I think that society right now is just under a lot of turmoil and negativity and things going on that I think the one thing that we think we can control is what we post about ourselves, right? And that social media platform that we can create, we can be in charge of. And so, I think there is that pressure to have it be as perfect as possible because sometimes life isn't. And so, that's the one thing we can control.

Host: So, was there anything in particular that you can point to that finally pushed you and gave you the courage, if you will, to use your voice publicly about, you know, just getting the information out there, being honest with people?

Alane Zannotti: Well, I think three years ago when Becky Endicott reached out to me and said, "Hey, Women for Wellness, we're doing this thing about our story." And we all have a story, and the stories are important to share. Because the more we tell our story, the more hope we have that someone else is maybe going through something similar and needed to hear your words, or you needed to have some affirmation that what you're feeling is okay.

And so, that was really the first time I told the whole story, and I remember my mom being in the audience and she just said thank you, because I think for her there's a lot of guilt as a parent knowing that there were probably a lot of times when I didn't really have parents very much because they were so busy dealing with my brother. And so, I think for her, it was good for her to kind of hear that I've done okay. There's not anger on my side or I don't feel like I got slighted or that I didn't have that. So, that was very important. Yeah.

Host: Well, Alane, you know this, or I hope you do, but it really does take bravery for you to kind of step out from behind the curtain and say, "Hey, this is who we are," and be that open and honest about your life and your family. And I know a lot of people appreciate that, and the people that are listening, they're going to get something out of this. But a lot of people are afraid to do that, and I think they may be afraid because of possible rejection, or I'm not sure what it may be. But have you found that your openness and honesty has created connection instead of rejection?

Alane Zannotti: Absolutely. I think maybe not so much connection, but I think a sense of relief to let it out, right? Because I think when you're going through the situation, you bottle it up and it just becomes this thing inside your body, that it's hard. And so, I think once you start telling it, it's kind of like little by little, you get a sense of peace.

And then, you're right, Joe, what happens then is that connection with someone that comes up to you and says, "I'm dealing with the same thing," or, "I'm dealing with something similar," or, "I felt the same way. Thank you." So, that certainly is helpful too. Yeah.

Host: It's an amazing story, Alane. So Alane, we end every segment with a challenge to care. for those people listening, what's your challenge to care for those who are quietly carrying the pain behind closed doors?

Alane Zannotti: You know, I would say, if you're not ready to let someone know, I mean, I would encourage someone to try and find someone, one person that you feel you can trust, you can tell the story to. And if you're not ready yet, I would write it. Find some way to get it out of just being all inside you.

Writing helps having the conversation out loud just with yourself. I know that there were times when I would sit after I'd had an interaction with my brother and just talk out loud by myself because that you have to get it out. I mean, keeping it bottled up inside of you just is not healthy. And so, I think you've got to find the right avenue for you if you're dealing with something like that. But that's kind of things that I would say.

Host: Thank you for your honesty, your openness, and really your bravery in sharing something that is so deeply personal. And we all know that. And I know this wasn't an easy conversation, but I truly believe your willingness to speak openly is really going to help people.

And there are families listening that are carrying pain and shame and confusion and grief or silence, very similar to what your family carried for all those years. And because you're willing to tell your truth about your story, they may feel a little less alone. So sincerely, thank you.

Before we close, if you or someone you love is struggling with depression, emotional crisis, addiction, or thoughts of suicide, never forget that help is available. You can call or text 988—that's the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline—anytime, 24 hours a day. And that number, again, is 988. You don't have to carry it alone. I'm Joe Akin. This is Alane Zannotti. Thank you for being a part of this conversation. And until next time, keep caring.