Deborah Howell (Host): You know, for quite some time, it was unthinkable to prescribe psychedelic drugs to patients for any reason. But that mindset is slowly changing. Welcome to Stoughton Health Talk. I'm Deborah Howell, and I invite you to listen as we discover why psychedelic drugs matter for the future of mental health care.

Joining me is Beverly Fergus, a master's degree student at the University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy. Welcome, Beverly.

Beverly Fergus: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.

Host: Oh, we're glad to have you. So, why are you so interested in this field of psychedelic pharmaceuticals?

Beverly Fergus: Well, I first heard about the program a few years ago and ended up learning that it was from the UW School of Pharmacy and one of the first programs in the country for psychoactive pharmaceuticals. But my nephews were marine officers. And when they got home from Afghanistan, one of them was telling me just recently that he lost two of his colleagues in Afghanistan in military operations. But since he's been home, he's lost more than 30 to suicide.

Host: Oh, my goodness.

Beverly Fergus: Yeah. So alarming. So, I did a little bit of research. And according to the Department of Veterans Affairs, since 911, the military has lost 7,000 people to military operations. But during that same time, 32,000 have committed suicide, four times the amount than they lost in military operations. The public doesn't know about this military epidemic. But since the pandemic, we have all understood that there is a real need for new mental health modalities.

Host: That is devastating. Let's talk about the current state of the mental health care industry. Why is there new interest in psychedelics?

Beverly Fergus: Well, I think that, like I was just saying, you know, we really need some new mental health care options. Since 2019, there has been an increase of mental health needs by adults and services have jumped by 40% just since 2019. And so, I think that there is really a need.

In the last 50 years, mental health care has been underwhelming. Therapy and the use of SSRIs has really not been completely effective. In fact, 30% of people who are using antidepressants and anti-anxiety medication really don't feel like they're getting the help that they need.

Host: Why do you think there hasn't been research in this field for so long?

Beverly Fergus: In the 1950s and '60s, there was really promising research for mental health care with psychedelics. There were potential treatments for alcoholism, schizophrenia, autism, obsessive compulsive disorder, depression and other conditions. But in 1970, Richard Nixon, the president at that time, declared a war on drugs. With that came the Controlled Substances Act by the government. And they put all drugs into a schedule between I and V. And all psychedelics were put into Schedule I drugs, which meant that they were toxic and highly potential for abuse, and they also had no medical advantage. And basically, it became a research desert. Nobody studied psychedelics for the last 50 years, because they couldn't get the materials to do the research. And if you wanted to study psychedelics, it would take 10 years to get approval. And you would have to spend tens of millions of dollars for these research facilities.

Host: Wow. So, that's a lot of time lost. So, what changed to spur new interest in psychedelic-assisted therapy for such a wide variety of mental health conditions?

Beverly Fergus: Like I said, it was becoming obvious that we needed some new mental health care modalities for treatments. And the Congress designated MDMA, which is commonly called molly and ecstasy, and psilocybin, which is magic mushrooms, they designated those two drugs as breakthrough therapies, which means that they had more potential for helping certain conditions than what was currently available.

And so since that happened, research has been able to start again and people are doing a lot of research on these drugs. In fact, right now, there are 370 clinical research studies being done on psychedelics.

Host: Wow, that is a lot. So Beth, is there work being done in Wisconsin?

Beverly Fergus: Yes. Actually, it's interesting that Wisconsin seems to be a real hot spot for psychedelic research. The UW, you know, like I said, I'm in a master's program for Psychoactive Pharmaceuticals, and the UW has a transdisciplinary center for psychedelic studies. So, we are really in the middle of all of this.

When I think about my professors, I really think that they are on the cutting edge of really modeling what this industry is going to look like, because it's super complicated since these drugs are still Schedule I drugs.

There's a company called USONA that was built by Promega in Madison, actually in Fitchburg, that is leading the way in mental health care treatments. They built a center and it is going to be devoted to everything psychedelic research. They'll do conferences, they'll eventually do treatments, group and individual. And the potential is staggering, but they don't even know how this is all going to play out yet.

Host: Yeah. It's brand new. So, can you take us through a treatment? Because I'm sure people listening are wondering. So, what really happens when you go in for one of these clinical trials or treatments?

Beverly Fergus: Right now, it's really interesting. There are some military support groups that are sending vets for treatments in legal places like Jamaica and Mexico. And if you go out of the country for a treatment, you're going to go for a four-day treatment, and you'll have two journeys. And you'll go through a four to six-hour treatment with one of the psychedelic drugs. And you'll have facilitators that will watch over you and you'll work through the things that you need to work through. A lot of times when you go through a treatment for these vets, their PTSD symptoms will be gone. After 10 or 12 years of going through therapy and trying to find answers, they can go through one four to six-hour treatment and oftentimes leave symptom-free from their depression or PTSD.

And so, it really is incredible. And so now, as the US is grappling with legalization and medicalization of these psychedelics, it is really going to be a complicated process as the FDA gets involved, pharmaceutical companies get involved, the government gets involved. But right now, in these clinical trials, typically somebody will take their psychedelic drug, lay down like they would be going into a therapy session. And the FDA currently wants two facilitators in the room as a person goes through a treatment. And then, they'll just sit there and hold space for these people for as long as they need it.

Host: And what is the current state of legalization and medicalization here in the US?

Beverly Fergus: That's really a potent question, because we have the breakthrough therapies for MDMA and psilocybin. They do believe that, within the next two to four years, MDMA will become approved by the FDA and then, shortly after that, psilocybin will. But there are a lot of roadblocks as you medicalize and monetize psychedelics. You can only imagine the FDA, the government, pharmaceutical companies trying to get control of this. As like, for example, psilocybin, there's indigenous cultures that have been using this for thousands of years. So now, the US is trying to make this a medical industry. And really, there's a lot of roadblocks and a lot of complications so far.

Host: And to say we're behind the curve might be the understatement of the century, right?

Beverly Fergus: it depends who you talk to. But yeah, I think that we really need to get this going, but we have to address things like accessibility for the people who really need it, but might not be able to eventually afford it. With the pharmaceutical companies getting involved, that's a big thing about the money and how they're going to grapple with that. They're grappling with how they're going to credential facilitators. That's not even a set thing yet. For example, the FDA wants two people to sit in each treatment. Well, as hundreds of thousands of people want these treatments, that's financially unrealistic to think that we're going to need that many mental health care providers.

Host: Well, the good thing is, is we have begun, and there are trials in progress and more to come. And so, we have to live with that hope, even as we live with the devastating, statistics that you gave us about the vets. Is there anything else you'd like to add to our conversation today, Bev?

Beverly Fergus: well, I just think that there's so much hope, so much hope for this psychedelic mental health care space. I do think that a lot of people are learning about it and there's a huge need. And so, there are a lot of people using this on the side that have been using it through indigenous cultures for years. We need to also learn a lot from them as we go through and try to commercialize this, medicalize this and monetize it. So, that's probably a subject for another podcast. There's so much information out there and so much still to learn.

Host: Well, thanks for getting us started on this journey. This has been just wonderful, Beverly. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Beverly Fergus: Oh, my gosh. It has been my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

Host: And for more information, you can head on over to our website at stoughtonhealth.com. And that concludes this episode of Stoughton Health Talk. Please remember to subscribe, rate and review this podcast and all the other Stoughton Hospital podcasts. I'm Deborah Howell. Have yourself a terrific day.