Nolan Alexander (Host): How can a mindset affect you beyond today and into the future? Today, we'll talk about a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset. This is UAMS Health Talk, and I'm Nolan Alexander. Today, I'm talking with Isis Pettway, a senior clinical therapist and licensed professional counselor from the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. Isis, thank you so much for joining us, and how are you today?

Isis Pettway, LPC: I'm doing good. Thank you for having me. Glad to be back.

Host: It's certainly our pleasure. Well, let's get to the basics here. Help us define what is a growth mindset compared to what's a fixed mindset.

Isis Pettway, LPC: So of course, a growth mindset, you believe that you can develop abilities through hard work, that it's not finite, it's not fixed—and we'll get to that shortly. But a growth mindset means believing you can develop abilities beyond what you think is just, you know, like it has to be this way, that's just the way things are. It's challenging that and saying, no, growth is available.

And a fixed mindset means that you think this is it, it's innate, you either have it or you don't. But a growth mindset helps you take challenges as opportunities, and you learn and you grow from them. You say, "Okay, you know what? This is a lesson. I learned from it. Now, I'm going to grow from it."

Host: So, do you believe your abilities are mostly fixed or something that can change over time? And why do you feel a certain way?

Isis Pettway, LPC: For me, through my own lived experiences, I definitely have a growth mindset. If I did not, I would not be here with you today. And so, what I will say is this, it's not an all-or-nothing. You will ebb and flow through them. But that, again, is where you have to choose to challenge yourself. So, it can become easy to drift into a fixed mindset, especially if things aren't going the way that you would want them to go. It's easy to just say, "You know what? Nothing's going to change. I'm just going to put this down and, you know, I'm not doing it," versus, "You know what? Hey"—and again, through my own lived experience—"This was a lesson, it happened. I've learned from it. I'm going to take this and I'm going to challenge myself to grow."

And so, I'll segue that just for anybody that is listening. In a fixed mindset, things can seem bleak. And again, you start to kind of black and white think it. It's either or all-or-nothing thinking. And the truth of the matter is things can happen. But again, you have to challenge that with the growth mindset that says, "No, no, no, no, no. This is a moment. Let's take a minute. And then, let's figure out what next steps can be. We may have to pivot and that's okay." Growth mindset is basically saying, "I've got to pivot. It didn't go the way that I thought, but let me pivot and see what other paths can be taken."

Host: So when you talk there about learning lessons from certain situations, I want to go to pinpoint that exactly. Like, what do you tend to tell yourself when you make a mistake?

Isis Pettway, LPC: All right. So, I'm just going to be very transparent and very honest, especially for anyone that is listening. Listen, negative self-talk happens, okay? We just have to be very honest. And one of the things for myself is to not stay there. And what I tend to notice in friends and clients is it becomes very easy to condition yourself in a negative mindset.

And a part of a journey and growth mindset is to say, "You know what? It happened. Maybe I didn't do my best," or "I've got to own that I was the villain in someone's story. And what I will do is I have to accept that this is their lived experience. I don't get to tell them that. However, now this helps me to grow. If repair is possible, sure." But a growth mindset says, "You know what? I'm going to hold myself accountable. I'm not going to project or put my mistakes on anybody else." It says, "You know what? I'm going to take this and I'm going to learn from it, because mistakes happen." But again, you have a choice in whether you sit and you stay with that or you say, "You know what? Let me get up, let me own what I did. And let me make the necessary repairs, whether or not somebody accepts it, that's out of my control." You only do what you can do in that circle of control. And you take that lesson and you pivot. But also, growth mindset says you live with the consequences of that as well.

Host: Well, since you're being transparent, I want to lean into this a little bit, Isis, and just kind of be transparent from my end. Like, I think something that I struggle with sometimes with social media is comparison, right? And so, I'm curious, like when you see someone else succeed at something that you struggle with, what thoughts do you notice?

Isis Pettway, LPC: What I try to remember is comparison is the thief of joy. But I'm also realistic that I'm human and I own that maybe envy and a little jealousy, you know, come to the forefront. But with that, I have to sit with, "Well, what is this like revving up for you?" In clinical terms, "We say what's triggering you?" But I'm going to keep it plain, like, "What is this saying?" And more times than not, it is you're watching this person actually do the thing that you want to do. Maybe you haven't been bold enough, maybe you haven't taken the steps. Maybe you've just been lazy, and you're watching this person go forth and do it.

And so, again, with growth mindset, for one, you have to say, "You know what? Well, let me challenge myself to learn this skill rather than giving up." So, comparison sometimes brings out some things that you thought you didn't have to confront and it says, "Ooh, I don't have anyone else to be mad at. Really, it's me. It's really me." And sometimes, actually more times than not, looking in the mirror and doing that work is some of the hardest work you'll ever do, because you have to own your things.

Host: Yeah, it is hard. And sometimes coming upfront with failure can be difficult too. And I mean this in general, because you talked about the fact that we're not perfect and we do make mistakes. But what does failing mean about you as a person?

Isis Pettway, LPC: So, failing as a person—so again, I'm going to take two roads with that. Think about when you did your science fair. Maybe you proved your question right? Maybe you proved your question—you know, and it was like, "Ah, it didn't have the outcome I thought it would." So, that's what failing is. Failing means that you gave it a try. Maybe it didn't work out the first time like you wanted it to. However, you can learn from it and say, "All right, it didn't work out this way. But maybe let me pivot and try, you know, this angle." We didn't get the light bulb because Edison and Tesla got it right. They had to keep making mistakes, or they failed upward. And so, just because it doesn't work out that first time doesn't mean it won't work. You may just have to take a different aspect. So, that's the positive side of failing. You keep trying. It's that song years ago. You know, if at first you don't succeed, pick yourself up and try again.

The negative part of failing is if you sit there and you just let that one time be your only time. And then, you are in that negative self-talk and then comparison, because you didn't give yourself permission to go at it again. So, that can be the negative side of failing, is if you don't give yourself permission to try again. So, you either are going to take what didn't work and challenge it, or you're going to take what didn't work and you're going to just let it sit. And then, that can bring up other negative feelings, resentment and all these other things. And it's like, "Well, you didn't try, you didn't try again. You just let it go by the wayside." So, Babe Ruth didn't become the baseball player he is. You know, he failed up. Michael Jordan had to fail up. So, that's what failure can mean.

Host: We're talking growth mindset versus fixed mindset with Isis Pettway today. And we're going in depth on it here with Isis. So, I want to come back to the growth and the fixed mindset here after talking about failure and attempts. If ability can grow with practice, how might you view this challenge differently?

Isis Pettway, LPC: All right. So if ability can grow with practice, again, it starts to shift that mindset, it starts to shift you into more of a narrative of I can, rather than I can't. So for instance, if you think of a toddler, anybody maybe ages two to six, I always tell people, if you watch that age group, it feels like that's when, you know, you're at your truest self.

But if you ever watch around like three or four, and they're trying to figure something out and instinctively, as a parent, you want to jump in and you want to help them, and they're like, "No, I got it." And you're like, "But let me help you. "And they're like, "No, I got it." And what they're trying to tell you is, "Let me figure this out." And after a while as a parent, you're just like, "Okay, I'm just going to let you have it." And you watch them, they struggle maybe just a little bit. But after a while when they get it, you see this big smile on their face, and they're like, "Mommy, daddy, I did it." And you know, you sit back and you beam. And so, in that example, they had to keep going at it. They might've got a little frustrated. You know, "I can't do it." And then, as the parent, you go, "No, just try it. That's it." So, you know, sometimes it helps to have a cheerleader behind you. But you see the fruit when that smile and their confidence blooms. And so, that is like growth mindset live and in color. Because again, "You know what? I didn't get it the first time, but I'm going to keep going at it." Think about when you had to learn to tie your shoe. You know, think about when you had to learn that, that new skill. And a lot of times we want it to be perfect, but we get a lot of rough drafts. And that's the point of the rough drafts. You you get it, you go with it. Somebody edits it, you come back to it. But again, a part of growth mindset is learning new skills, and don't give up on it. Even when times are tough, you may want to throw that towel in, you may want to be like, "I'm just going to avoid it." You avoid it instead of thinking of what you can learn from the situation. However, again, sometimes getting to the other side means not going around it. You got to go through it.

Host: Well, as the father of a three-year-old, you have given a clean view into my every morning when it comes to putting shoes on. That's exactly what happens. You nailed it right there, Isis.

Isis Pettway, LPC: You know, so even, Nolan, as a dad, when you see your three-year-old accomplish that, like, how does that make you feel?

Host: It's great. It's awesome. I mean, part of it's because it's finally over with, but no, it truly is great see you finally succeed.

Isis Pettway, LPC: Yeah. Okay. So, your three-year-old is probably like, "No, daddy, I got it. Like, I got it," or " I want to help with the dishes." You see their confidence grow. And the same thing as adults. Trying new things can be scary. But again, with growth mindset, when you get to the other side of it, you're just like, "Oh my gosh." \

I'll give you an example. So, this morning, my trainer was like, "We're going to do some kickboxing." So, I'm having to learn stance and how to follow directions. And I was like, "I don't want to do this anymore." But when I go back Thursday, I'm going to get in there and I'm going to practice my stance because I can either have a growth mindset or fixed mindset. And wanting to get my body stronger and learn new skill sets is going to require that I challenge myself and not give up and think, "You know what? You either got it or you don't." That's going to stop me, and then that spirals into some other rabbit holes you don't want to take yourself down.

Host: So mindset, it seems like it can have a positive effect on your motivation, right? Especially when you come upon those challenges. And then, how do you feel when you believe that you can do this and you can make improvements?

Isis Pettway, LPC: Absolutely. So, motivation, there are two things that can motivate us. We either are motivated to get away from something, or we're motivated to go towards something. And so for instance, if someone is tired of—let's say you have the teenager who's just like, "You know what, I'm ready to drive. I'm ready to leave school when I want to leave school. I got a job, I want to work and I'm tired of waiting on my mom or dad to come, you know, pick me up." So, their motivation to drive is I need to expand my independence. And so, they're going to be motivated to go take that test. So again, growth mindset. They have to challenge themselves to say, "You know what? I can do this." If you failed that permit test the first time, it's not the end of the world. You have to challenge yourself because you can either say, "Oh, man, I didn't pass. I guess I'm just going to let mom and dad take me everywhere." That's that fixed mindset. You just believe you either have it or you don't.

Your growth mindset says, "No, we're going to go study again. We know the questions now, and we're going to be maybe a little more prepared" or "Maybe the first time we just clicked on some stuff, so now we're going to slow down." Again, you're taking your lessons and you're applying it in the pivot. With motivation, it is challenging yourself and saying, "You know what? I want to grow into something more. I want to see more of my capabilities." It's finding your silver lining rather than dwelling on your negatives. Life isn't perfect. You know, I think I said that in the beginning. But more times than not, we can find the positive aspect of a situation if we really want to find it. And so, again, it may not be perfect, but there is hope in the pivot.

Host: Isis, you've been so open and insightful with us today. Is there anything else you'd like to add to the discussion of growth mindset versus fixed mindset?

Isis Pettway, LPC: Absolutely. So, the last thing that I'll leave you with is what are you giving yourself permission to do? Because it helps to have encouragement from others to have people cheering you on. But at the end of the day, you are looking back at yourself. Your reflection is looking back at you. And at the end of the day, nobody else can do the work but you and You have to sit with the choices that you make and the consequences that can come with them. You have positive consequences and you have negative consequences. And so at the end of the day, "Are you ready to, one, be accountable for the choices, you know, that you make?" And two, "Are you ready to challenge yourself and do the things that you say you want to do?" So, I'll be very transparent again. So, consistency is something that I'm having to have a growth mindset about the changes that I want to make with my physical activity. I've got to be consistent with some things. And so, I've had to, you know, really get out of that fixed mindset. And so, it's not easy work. Let me just go on and put that out. This some of the hardest work you will do. It is facing the reflection in the mirror. So just remember, it's not easy work, but it's worth it to get to your healthy outcome.

Host: Isis, i've truly enjoyed today's conversation. Thank you again for your time. We really do appreciate it.

Isis Pettway, LPC: No, thank you guys for your time. Appreciate it, Nolan. Really good conversation. So thank you so much.

Host: Our pleasure. To make an appointment at the UAMS Psychiatric Research Institute, please call 501-526-8100. That's 501-526-8100. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it on your social channels and check out the entire podcast library for topics of interest to you. I'm Nolan Alexander, and this is UAMS Health Talk. Thanks for listening.